Abduction ... what is the evidence ?

[Luz]

If an abduction had taken place, if in fact Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a child ( I am excluding the Smith's sighting for now),…why on earth didn’t she tell everyone as soon as the alarm was given and why didn’t they all run outside looking for that man? Why did they keep in the apartment with Kate and Gerald too busy calling people in the UK?

And if the testimony of those nine people were truthful, that they checked the children as frequently as they said, then the hypothesis of an abduction was practically almost impossible.  It would mean that 7 persons were going to and from the apartment complex 14 times in 2 hours. That would leave about 2 to 3 minutes for an abductor to take a child. And furthermore, there were buildings in front of the apartment with windows opened and people inside that didn’t see any suspicious movement.

Besides, who believes that an abductor would take a child and instead of having a car parked outside the ap would just walk out the street with the said child in his arms and instead of going the other way (to the left) where there are no houses, he would walk right towards the centre of the village?!

Come on!

[gilet]

And however unlikely you may consider it, it was certainly possible that an abductor opened the window.

As someone else has said speculation will never solve the case.

An abduction is a possible explanation.
A cover-up by the McCanns is a possible explanation.
A wandering scenario is perfectly possible.

The reality is that people are just speculating. No-one here (I presume) has all the evidence to hand. No-one (I presume) has questioned the witnesses. No-one (I presume) has examined the apartment in detail (though I am aware some have visited PDL).

I would hope we could all agree that definitive statements as to what happened can only be made after a full examination of all the evidence, after close questioning of the witnesses and after proper examination of the crime scene.

As none of us (I presume) has achieved any of those then it is wrong for any of us, in my opinion, to state categorically what happened.

It is also wrong for people to present information and to continue presenting that information as fact when it has been shown to be only speculation or even worse to be false.

We are all,  indeed,  speculating about what may have happened to cause  a three year old to disappear

I am asking what particular evidence the speculation that she was abducted  could be based on

The particular evidence that there were witnesses to an unexplained man (who has never come forward) carrying away a child from the very area where Madeleine went missing on that very evening.

Till that evidence is completely explained then it remains a vital lead to a potential abduction.

I think this needs to be clarified

The implication seems to be that these witnesses saw  the same  man carrying a child that night

There is no evidence to prove the man seen by Jane Tanner at 10.15pm was the  same  man seen by the Smith family 45 minutes later  ...  indeed the very fact that there is a 45 minute  gap between the two,   suggests they were  not  the same man  (  unless he had aimlessly been wandering around Priai da Luz for nearly an hour with an abducted child in his arms ) 

This one belongs on the myth thread I think

Were did I mention Jane Tanner?

I said "witnesses to an unexplained man".  You are leaping to conclusions there I fear.

However, now you have mentioned Jane Tanner, that is a second reason to believe in a potential abduction.

There are two separate incidents reported of men carrying away a child from the very area where Madeleine disappeared both within one hour or so of that disappearance.

Until those two separate claims are fully explained then they remain as evidence of a potential abduction.

Men seen  'carrying away a child  ?

That is not factual, is it ?

Two men were seen carrying a child that night  ...  in itself not noteworthy at all  ...  in the context of a child having gone missing that night,  of significance/interest, certainly  (  but not,  in any way  'evidence'  of an abduction )

Your statement that both men were walking away from the area where Madeleine disappeared is also entirely speculative  ...  the man seen by the Smith family was seen some distance away from the McCann apartment,  and could have been coming from any direction

Having looked again at the Smith sighting he was moving south away from the McCann location towards the beach.

You appear to have missed a vital word in my post.

"Unexplained"

It is noteworthy that a man carrying a child away from the McCann apartment and less than 500m on foot from that apartment within one hour of the disappearance has not come forward.

Until that sighting has been fully explained it is potential evidence of abduction.

[Luz]

Here you have a reconstruction made by Paulo Sargento and Luis Gamito based on the accounts given by the Tapas 9 about their movements since the time The McCann got the children from the creche until the alarm that shows how difficult an abduction could take place.

http://blip.tv/joana-morais-tv/tapas-3d-reconstruction-time-line-2776255

[gilet]

Here you have a reconstruction made by Paulo Sargento and Luis Gamito based on the accounts given by the Tapas 9 about their movements since the time The McCann got the children from the creche until the alarm that shows how difficult an abduction could take place.

http://blip.tv/joana-morais-tv/tapas-3d-reconstruction-time-line-2776255

Isn't Paulo Sargento the very good friend of Mr Amaral?

Do you expect us to take Paulo Sargento as an unbiased individual? Seriously?

[Luz]

Having looked again at the Smith sighting he was moving south away from the McCann location towards the beach.

You appear to have missed a vital word in my post.

"Unexplained"

It is noteworthy that a man carrying a child away from the McCann apartment and less than 500m on foot from that apartment within one hour of the disappearance has not come forward.

Until that sighting has been fully explained it is potential evidence of abduction.

[/quote]



You forgot to mention that Mr. Smith believed that the man he saw was Mr. Gerald McCann.

[gilet]

Having looked again at the Smith sighting he was moving south away from the McCann location towards the beach.

You appear to have missed a vital word in my post.

"Unexplained"

It is noteworthy that a man carrying a child away from the McCann apartment and less than 500m on foot from that apartment within one hour of the disappearance has not come forward.

Until that sighting has been fully explained it is potential evidence of abduction.

You forgot to mention that Mr. Smith believed that the man he saw was Mr. Gerald McCann.
[/quote]

Please get your facts right. He said he believed there was a possibility it was Gerry McCann.

None of the other Smiths who gave statements reported any such possibility.

[Luz]

Here you have a reconstruction made by Paulo Sargento and Luis Gamito based on the accounts given by the Tapas 9 about their movements since the time The McCann got the children from the creche until the alarm that shows how difficult an abduction could take place.

http://blip.tv/joana-morais-tv/tapas-3d-reconstruction-time-line-2776255

Isn't Paulo Sargento the very good friend of Mr Amaral?
Do you expect us to take Paulo Sargento as an unbiased individual? Seriously?

Why not? Paulo Sargento and Luis Gamito are University investigators and if Paulo Sargento became friends with Mr. Amaral I don't know, but I know that he respects him.

Should I question your opinions because of your connection with the McCann front group?!

[Luz]

Having looked again at the Smith sighting he was moving south away from the McCann location towards the beach.

You appear to have missed a vital word in my post.

"Unexplained"

It is noteworthy that a man carrying a child away from the McCann apartment and less than 500m on foot from that apartment within one hour of the disappearance has not come forward.

Until that sighting has been fully explained it is potential evidence of abduction.

You forgot to mention that Mr. Smith believed that the man he saw was Mr. Gerald McCann.

Please get your facts right. He said he believed there was a possibility it was Gerry McCann.

None of the other Smiths who gave statements reported any such possibility.
[/quote]


Ok. According to his testimony he was 80% certain. Does it sound better?!
The other Smith'es were not so certain but they also corroborated the possibility of...

You are really precious, for someone who doesn't care about facts when it means defending your darlings. But alright, let's have it your way.

[Rachel Granada]

Hello Luz.  What are your thoughts on the McCanns not being charged with anything?

[Luz]

Hello Luz.  What are your thoughts on the McCanns not being charged with anything?

I am outraged. Because if they did in fact leave their children alone in an apartment during their dinner time they should have been imprisoned for at least 5-10 years. There was a case very close in time to the McCann's, where a very poor mother with 3 children from 3 to 9 years old had to leave them alone at home while she went to a Court hearing concerning parental rights, and as she didn't have anyone nor money to pay a person to babysit them she left them alone. This woman lost her children and was sent to prison for 2 years.

[Rachel Granada]

Hello Luz.  What are your thoughts on the McCanns not being charged with anything?

I am outraged. Because if they did in fact leave their children alone in an apartment during their dinner time they should have been imprisoned for at least 5-10 years. There was a case very close in time to the McCann's, where a very poor mother with 3 children from 3 to 9 years old had to leave them alone at home while she went to a Court hearing concerning parental rights, and as she didn't have anyone nor money to pay a person to babysit them she left them alone. This woman lost her children and was sent to prison for 2 years.

I see.  Thanks for your response, Luz.

[gilet]

Hello Luz.  What are your thoughts on the McCanns not being charged with anything?

I am outraged. Because if they did in fact leave their children alone in an apartment during their dinner time they should have been imprisoned for at least 5-10 years. There was a case very close in time to the McCann's, where a very poor mother with 3 children from 3 to 9 years old had to leave them alone at home while she went to a Court hearing concerning parental rights, and as she didn't have anyone nor money to pay a person to babysit them she left them alone. This woman lost her children and was sent to prison for 2 years.

But that case was very different and both the distance from the parent to the children and the time which the children were left were significantly longer.

Your own Attorney General stated that the question of neglect or abandonment had been investigated with regard to the McCanns and was dismissed.

Do you not accept the results of police and judicial investigations in Portugal?

[sadie]

Additionally, very powerful evidence is the way that kate and Gerry have made every effort to get high powered police involved.

If they were guilty of any misdemenor, then after a suitable period, they would have quietly vanished off the scene.

Not Kate and Gerry .  They pressed to get what is reputed to be the best investigative team in the world involved

That is not the behaviour of a guilty party.  By opening the biggest investigation in the world with the best team, they have proved their innocence


QED

[Luz]

Hello Luz.  What are your thoughts on the McCanns not being charged with anything?

I am outraged. Because if they did in fact leave their children alone in an apartment during their dinner time they should have been imprisoned for at least 5-10 years. There was a case very close in time to the McCann's, where a very poor mother with 3 children from 3 to 9 years old had to leave them alone at home while she went to a Court hearing concerning parental rights, and as she didn't have anyone nor money to pay a person to babysit them she left them alone. This woman lost her children and was sent to prison for 2 years.

But that case was very different and both the distance from the parent to the children and the time which the children were left were significantly longer.

Your own Attorney General stated that the question of neglect or abandonment had been investigated with regard to the McCanns and was dismissed.

Do you not accept the results of police and judicial investigations in Portugal?

That Attorney General was a disgrace. he accepted being influenced by the British Ambassador and made a mess of this case.
If there wasn't for the political interference they would have been imprisoned immediately after the child went missing. But as time went by that became impossible because there is a 6 months timing to act after the fact is known, and that's why all that shitty discourse about "the poor McCann".

[Luz]

Additionally, very powerful evidence is the way that kate and Gerry have made every effort to get high powered police involved.

If they were guilty of any misdemenor, then after a suitable period, they would have quietly vanished off the scene.

Not Kate and Gerry .  They pressed to get what is reputed to be the best investigative team in the world involved

That is not the behaviour of a guilty party.  By opening the biggest investigation in the world with the best team, they have proved their innocence


QED

Excuse me, are you kidding me?!
Those two avoided any possibility of a full investigation. As soon as they started being questioned, as they should have from the beginning and not six months later, they escaped like rabbits.
Those cowards couldn't face the police even to save their child.

As Amaral said in 2007 about Kate McCann, "I wouldn't want her to be my mother".