The known facts and the speculations featuring Brueckner, the prime suspect

[Vertigo Swirl]

One would have to wonder where the man seen at around 10pm was going, as he wasn't heading towards Ocean Club accomodation. If he wasn't an OC guest he didn't leave the creche.

The 'multiple' people giving Gerry McCann an alibi were actually seven people, and a couple of them weren't sure, so that's five people. All friends of theirs.

Five people is “multiple people”.  Friends are also people.  Now you have to ask yourself how credible it is that five people would give Gerry an alibi and two other people would go along with it unquestioningly.  That’s seven people in a potential cover up, not one of whom has broken cover in 15 years.  They must have been very, VERY good friends, yet we know that at least one of them (JT) started the holiday as little more than an acquaintance. 

[Vertigo Swirl]

One day you’re going to realise how implausible and illogical your theory is but clearly that day has yet to arrive.  Oh well, we live in hope.

[G-Unit]

Five people is “multiple people”.  Friends are also people.  Now you have to ask yourself how credible it is that five people would give Gerry an alibi and two other people would go along with it unquestioningly.  That’s seven people in a potential cover up, not one of whom has broken cover in 15 years.  They must have been very, VERY good friends, yet we know that at least one of them (JT) started the holiday as little more than an acquaintance.

It's strange how people can speculate about some subjects but not about others. It's not difficult to imagine why a group of people may be interested in making sure they all tell the same story.

[Mr Gray]

Member States shall take the necessary measures to ensure that, for as long as a suspect or an accused person has not been proved guilty according to law, public statements made by public authorities, and judicial decisions, other than those on guilt, do not refer to that person as being guilty.

Wolters has not referred to CB as being guilty

[jassi]

It's strange how people can speculate about some subjects but not about others. It's not difficult to imagine why a group of people may be interested in making sure they all tell the same story.

That's what friends are for, according to Disney's vultures

[G-Unit]

That's what friends are for, according to Disney's vultures

Doctors allegedly close ranks to protect each other too. I'm sure they were all aware that their child care arrangements weren't ideal.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Doctors allegedly close ranks to protect each other too. I'm sure they were all aware that their child care arrangements weren't ideal.

The slight flaw in your argument is that there was no attempt to cover up their child care arrangements so why risk everything by lying and conspiring simply to protect the reputations of two of your group whose child dies accidentally?  It makes absolutely no sense at all.

Also, can we have a cite for doctors closing rank in a non professional setting please?  Because that doesn’t make any sense either IMO.

[Vertigo Swirl]

It's strange how people can speculate about some subjects but not about others. It's not difficult to imagine why a group of people may be interested in making sure they all tell the same story.

If it’s not difficult to imagine then perhaps you can tell us in your own opinion why you think the entire Tapas group might agree to go along with such a wicked plan.

[Ms Para glider]

"So it could have been Madeleine" - I never said that it couldn't. It was your mistake to interpret that's what I was saying.

"Up to 80% sure" - I believe what he said was 60 to 80 percent sure. Or in other words, not totally sure. Don't you find it strange that he told the police he would not recognise or be able to identify the person if he saw them again, but then somehow attributes a percentage likeness based on the way Gerry held one of the twins? Or strange that this was four months later he came to this epiphany? Four months during which time the McCanns were plastered all over the news and yet somehow neither he or his family clicked that Gerry was the man they saw and gave police witness statements about? Or strange that the Smith family has since talked about wanting to "help" the McCanns find their missing daughter? Why would they do that if they were convinced it was Gerry?

And no, I don't find it especially strange that the McCanns would have thought the JT sighting was the abductor. And how exactly did they "sideline" the Smith sighting? They weren't in charge of the investigation, the PJ were. The PJ didn't really delve any further into it for the same reasons I've mentioned. Gerry was seen by multiple people in the OC at the same time the Smiths thought he was elsewhere.

"Similar in appearance and dress" - they were young female children wearing pyjamas (which are nearly always pink/white for girls). Not really implausible is it? And given that one of these sighting may well have been Madeleine, you are then only talking about one similar person. For example, let's assume the Smith sighting was MM but the man carrying her was not Gerry. What are we left with? A pair of girls legs also wearing white/pink pyjamas. Possibly the daughter of the Doctor. Nothing particularly implausible about that.

"Almost certainly precludes it" - That's just your opinion, not a fact.

"That last bit of waffle" - You still have not offered a logical explanation for why all these witnesses would lie or why Gerry would openly carry a dead body through town at that time when he could be seen by anyone. Panic and worry about claims of neglect over an accident don't cut it. If he was caught disposing of her body, the police would have assumed the parents had murdered her. Owning up to the accident, it's likely they wouldn't have even been prosecuted for anything. Dining at the Tapas while they left their children in the apartment was not illegal. Some MW resorts offer a listening service so that parents can do exactly this and what the Tapas group did was probably a step above this service since they usually entered the apartments to check rather than just periodically listening at the door. Whether MM died from an accident or was taken by someone does not alter the McCanns level of neglect. It doesn't change what they did, the only difference is that the abduction made it worldwide news, so that everyone would now know about their neglect and condemn them for leaving the children unattended. It's not really a great plan therefore is it? Had they just owned up to an accident, I doubt it would have even made the news.

[Ms Para glider]

One would have to wonder where the man seen at around 10pm was going, as he wasn't heading towards Ocean Club accomodation. If he wasn't an OC guest he didn't leave the creche.

The 'multiple' people giving Gerry McCann an alibi were actually seven people, and a couple of them weren't sure, so that's five people. All friends of theirs.

Actually, the "Ocean Club" is spread across a wide area of Luz. Part of which (The Waterside village) is located on the cliffs at the west end of the beach, which is in the direction the man was heading. Plus, was the Ocean Club night creche the only babysitting service in PDL? In any case, it's irrelevant, there could be any number of reasons why another father might be carrying their daughter that night. Or, as I've already accepted, the girl might well have been Madeleine. What I don't accept though, is that Gerry was the person carrying her.

Whether it was 5 people or 7 people or more, it is still "multiple" witnesses who state Gerry was at the OC at this time. No workers from the Tapas bar state they saw Gerry leave on his own around the time in question either. Other guests confirm Gerry's presence around this time too (Raj and Neil from the balcony). Nobody else has come forward to say Gerry was seen walking to or from town at that time. And since some people here have so much faith in the cadaver dog, perhaps they can explain why the dog didn't alert to any of Gerry's clothes, only Kate's?

Just because the other members of the group were "friends" of the McCanns (I think "acquaintances" would be a more accurate description with regards most of the group's relationship with the McCanns), still doesn't make it at all "logical" that they would all lie and help cover up something as big as this. Persuading just one person to give you an alibi so you can dispose of your daughter's body would be difficult enough, much less an entire group, some of whom barely knew the McCanns on a personal level, they were more friends-of-a-friend.

[Vertigo Swirl]

If 80% sure is a good measure of the accuracy of a witness’s recollection of a person they have seen, then we can rejoice that Madeleine is alive because at least one  witness has claimed to be 100% sure they saw her post disappearance. 

[faithlilly]

"So it could have been Madeleine" - I never said that it couldn't. It was your mistake to interpret that's what I was saying.

Glad we’ve sorted that one out.

"Up to 80% sure" - I believe what he said was 60 to 80 percent sure. Or in other words, not totally sure. Don't you find it strange that he told the police he would not recognise or be able to identify the person if he saw them again, but then somehow attributes a percentage likeness based on the way Gerry held one of the twins? Or strange that this was four months later he came to this epiphany? Four months during which time the McCanns were plastered all over the news and yet somehow neither he or his family clicked that Gerry was the man they saw and gave police witness statements about? Or strange that the Smith family has since talked about wanting to "help" the McCanns find their missing daughter? Why would they do that if they were convinced it was Gerry?

In relation to the ‘help the McCanns’ quote, do you believe a quote in a newspaper or the police statement of Martin Smith? We do know though that the Panorama claim that  Smith had recanted his identification is not true and further that OG found Smith and his family’s sighting so credible that it was front and centre of that aforementioned 2013 television appeal.

And no, I don't find it especially strange that the McCanns would have thought the JT sighting was the abductor. And how exactly did they "sideline" the Smith sighting? They weren't in charge of the investigation, the PJ were. The PJ didn't really delve any further into it for the same reasons I've mentioned. Gerry was seen by multiple people in the OC at the same time the Smiths thought he was elsewhere.

You know you are absolutely right, the parents weren’t in charge of the police investigation but they were of their own and we know from the man leading that investigation that the Smith sighting was sidelined in favour of the Tanner sighting, a sighting that even you agree there was no reason to believe wasn't simply a father taking his child home from the creche.

"Similar in appearance and dress" - they were young female children wearing pyjamas (which are nearly always pink/white for girls). Not really implausible is it? And given that one of these sighting may well have been Madeleine, you are then only talking about one similar person. For example, let's assume the Smith sighting was MM but the man carrying her was not Gerry. What are we left with? A pair of girls legs also wearing white/pink pyjamas. Possibly the daughter of the Doctor. Nothing particularly implausible about that.

If the girl seen by the Smiths was Madeleine then I agree, the sightings of blonde haired girls dwindles somewhat. However from two eyewitnesses, Smith and his almost always forgotten wife, we know that that child was more than likely carried by her own father.

"Almost certainly precludes it" - That's just your opinion, not a fact.

"That last bit of waffle" - You still have not offered a logical explanation for why all these witnesses would lie or why Gerry would openly carry a dead body through town at that time when he could be seen by anyone. Panic and worry about claims of neglect over an accident don't cut it. If he was caught disposing of her body, the police would have assumed the parents had murdered her. Owning up to the accident, it's likely they wouldn't have even been prosecuted for anything. Dining at the Tapas while they left their children in the apartment was not illegal. Some MW resorts offer a listening service so that parents can do exactly this and what the Tapas group did was probably a step above this service since they usually entered the apartments to check rather than just periodically listening at the door. Whether MM died from an accident or was taken by someone does not alter the McCanns level of neglect. It doesn't change what they did, the only difference is that the abduction made it worldwide news, so that everyone would now know about their neglect and condemn them for leaving the children unattended. It's not really a great plan therefore is it? Had they just owned up to an accident, I doubt it would have even made the news.

Why the witnesses may have lied, or at the least obfuscated the truth, we may only know that when the truth of the events that night see the light of day. As to leaving their children alone, if they had done the same in the U.K. and their actions had lead to the death of one of their children it would almost certainly have had dire consequences for both them as a family and their careers. The change of narrative from death through neglect to disappearance by abduction was only ever going to be a partial protection from prosecution but get the weight of the world’s sympathy on your side and who knows? As to Gerry carrying a body through the town, even he admitted in one of his statements how quiet PDL was at night and if he was seen, well he was only one of those fathers taking their child home from the creche, wasn’t he, or so the witness would have thought.

[faithlilly]

Whether it was 5 people or 7 people or more, it is still "multiple" witnesses who state Gerry was at the OC at this time. No workers from the Tapas bar state they saw Gerry leave on his own around the time in question either.

Not true “ SVETLANA
-------  STARIKOVA VITORINO (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - kitchen assistant:
- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.“




Other guests confirm Gerry's presence around this time too (Raj and Neil from the balcony).

Not until after the alert.


Nobody else has come forward to say Gerry was seen walking to or from town at that time. And since some people here have so much faith in the cadaver dog, perhaps they can explain why the dog didn't alert to any of Gerry's clothes, only Kate's?

Just because the other members of the group were "friends" of the McCanns (I think "acquaintances" would be a more accurate description with regards most of the group's relationship with the McCanns), still doesn't make it at all "logical" that they would all lie and help cover up something as big as this. Persuading just one person to give you an alibi so you can dispose of your daughter's body would be difficult enough, much less an entire group, some of whom barely knew the McCanns on a personal level, they were more friends-of-a-friend.

[Ms Para glider]

Which police statement are you referring to? The one where he says he would not be unable to recognise the man again? Or the one where he isn't totally sure that the man was Gerry?

You seem to be a lot more certain that the Smiths saw Gerry than the Smiths were. Let's look at what Martin actually says:

In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife.

IMO, what we are seeing here is along the lines of distinction bias. The Smiths admit they followed the case and for four months, they see Gerry in the news daily. Not once do they consider that this could be the person they saw. Then, just 2 days after the McCanns were made Arguidos, all of a sudden they are thinking "ooh, could Gerry have been the man we saw?" and their opinions and memories are influenced by this news that the parents are now in the frame. It's not a coincidence Martin Smith had this sudden epiphany as soon as the parents were declared suspects IMO.

[Ms Para glider]

This is not Svetlana's official statement, but from brief notes officers made the day after the disappearance. Note it says "Purportedly" the father. Who is purporting it, her, the officer, someone else who told her? Doesn't say she witnessed this herself, it sounds more likely she is re-telling something one of her colleagues told her (probably the waiter Ricardo who, in his rogotary admits he only later learned the man who he said left the table for a long while was called Russell). It's almost certain that the person she is referring to is actually Russell O'Brien who stayed a while to tend to his daughter and returned shortly before Kate did her check. In her official statement, she makes absolutely no mention of it, indicating this was probably not something that she directly witnessed. She said she was a kitchen assistant and said she only goes outside sometimes to check on the grills and wasn't paying much attention that night.