Jane Tanners sighting. Did the abductor have an accomplice who waited nearby?

[Admin]

It has been suggested in some of the threads that the abductor of Madeleine McCann had help in the form of an accomplice who may have initially acted as lookout and thereafter as getaway driver for this individual.

I know that several members have visited Praia da Luz and spent a considerable amount of time exploring the area around the Ocean Club and the town in general.

What are you views on this?

John, I have not contributed to this thread yet posts I have made on other threads (which have since been edited / altered) appear here as though I have wilfully contributed to this debate ! How is this possible ?

This thread was created as a consequence of another thread being split into two as different subjects were being discussed.  The posts you refer to are your posts but if you wish to remove them you can do so at any time.

[Admin]

Anne, you are right, there is no argument unless at least two are willing to discuss.

Sometimes I felt that this has been premeditated - because in fact, whoever is counselling those two know that as long as there is arguments within the populace, they are "off the hook", so to speak.

I look at myself and I don't understand what keeps me coming to these places. In my mind that little child is dead, and I am just disgusted that the truth is not revealed as I am disgusted that other lives had been distraught by this. I can't accept that a little child has disappeared and there are still people that are using it to make a living.

Gilet & al. insult the portuguese and especially Mr. Amaral not recognizing that he gave up his career in order to tell what the parents would not tell. He was not dismissed, he requested his dismissal, in order to write the book. He was, at the time the best PJ detective in the country. Just weeks before his self dismissal he made the biggest apprehension of drugs in Europe. Half an year after the book he attended a charity event in the north of Portugal promoted by the royalty of Europe, whose minimum was €500, to gather funds for children in Africa (I suspect that's where his book's royalties went to). He was involved in a crime that never happened, by a murderess liar, as was proved this month in a Court of Faro - the Court considered all detectives innocent since there was no crime.
Going around saying that he is guilty is a lie. How could he be guilty of signing the records of the day that didn't contain an account of a torture if it never happened?!

What did the MacCann do for their daughter?

An interesting take on why Amaral gave up his career Luz.  Yes, he resigned but it was that or be pushed as we say in the UK.

Please explain what you mean by insult the Portuguese?  Are you prepared to defend the Portuguese police in their barbaric methods or the corruption within the Portuguese Justice System?  The back-handers, the bribes to judges and the political interference in judicial decisions?

You are incorrect about there not being a crime. The Portuguese courts which you hold in such high regard convicted Amaral of this crime but failed to convict the other police officers on the basis that they could not be identified by their victim.  Amaral is therefore technically and legally guilty.

The McCann's didn't ask some low-life to abduct their daughter.

[Admin]

If the sighting by Tanner is to be accepted the mystery man was heading east which was away from the town centre and the Smiths.  To have then been seen by them some 45mins later would have required him to backtrack and risk detection.  A bit of a mystery indeed?   8-)(--)

On the night that Maddie was abducted the PJ took 30 minutes to arrive at the Club after being alerted and then only arrived at 11pm which was a full hour after Kate found her missing.  This delay appears to have been because they were dealing with another incident.  Then add the time it took to gather information and put out a bulletin to all patrols and alert the Spanish authorities.  Lets make a guesstimate at it at about 90 minutes.

How far can someone get in a car in that time?  70 miles?  80 miles?  90 miles?

The Spanish border was only 126Km or 75 miles away and easily within reach even before checkpoints had been established.

[John]

There is a suggestion that the man seen by Jane Tanner and frequently referred to as bundleman or egghead could have been heading for a getaway car when Tanner saw him.

Proving this however is another matter. 

[sadie]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

And you are certain that he was sweating how ?

You are quite right DA,

... but the chances are that he/she was covered in nervous sweat and probably fag smoke

and I bet that smell would override Madeleines scent.

Sadie with the utmost respect to you your comments are at best supposition and speculatory ! Sweat, the scent of tobacco and now either he OR she !
Can you enlighten me as to how your theory keeps evolving to suit a debate ?
Your original thesis was that bundleMAN (your words, though that may now be bundleWOMAN) took Madeleine westwards away from the street where Jane walked up and Gerry and Jez chatted and now you theorise that the scent the sniffer dogs followed was down that very same street ?
In your version did bundlePERSON still have Madeleine in his arms OR did they leave her somewhere and then casually stroll back down past the tapas reception area to the point where the sniffer dogs search concluded (all the time sweating most probably through fear of being caught) ?

I'm all for logical, mature debate but your theories are becoming fantasist at best !

No DA, you have misread it.  I am not talking about bundleman

I am talking about the lifter, who may be a woman, but then may be a man.  Nobody knows even if there was a lifter, but it seems quite likely as Madeleines head should have been on bundlemans right arm had he lifted her, yet it was on his left arm.  This suggests a passing over from one person to another

Do you agree?

Of course it is speculation, but it could be right

... and unlike the majority of anti speculation might help realise what truly happened

[DevilsAdvocate]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

And you are certain that he was sweating how ?

You are quite right DA,

... but the chances are that he/she was covered in nervous sweat and probably fag smoke

and I bet that smell would override Madeleines scent.

Sadie with the utmost respect to you your comments are at best supposition and speculatory ! Sweat, the scent of tobacco and now either he OR she !
Can you enlighten me as to how your theory keeps evolving to suit a debate ?
Your original thesis was that bundleMAN (your words, though that may now be bundleWOMAN) took Madeleine westwards away from the street where Jane walked up and Gerry and Jez chatted and now you theorise that the scent the sniffer dogs followed was down that very same street ?
In your version did bundlePERSON still have Madeleine in his arms OR did they leave her somewhere and then casually stroll back down past the tapas reception area to the point where the sniffer dogs search concluded (all the time sweating most probably through fear of being caught) ?

I'm all for logical, mature debate but your theories are becoming fantasist at best !

No DA, you have misread it.  I am not talking about bundleman

I am talking about the lifter, who may be a woman, but then may be a man.  Nobody knows even if there was a lifter, but it seems quite likely as Madeleines head should have been on bundlemans right arm had he lifted her, yet it was on his left arm.  This suggests a passing over from one person to another

Do you agree?

Of course it is speculation, but it could be right

... and unlike the majority of anti speculation might help realise what truly happened

Can I ask you a very simple question Sadie ? How many people were involved in the abduction of Madeleine ?
So far you have claimed there was a getaway driver who fled the scene because of Jane arriving to do her check leaving bundleman to unexpectedly travel across her path heading westwards. Are you now suggesting that there was a third member of this group, be it a man or woman who "lifted" Madeleine from her bed and then passed Madeleine to bundleman ?

[sadie]

Yes, I think there were three

Bundleman
A lifter who had some connection probably to OC and who Madeleine trusted (in case she awakened)
The watcher/ getaway driver


but it could have been done with two, in which case Bundleman was lifter as well as carrying away, but somehow swopped Madeleine over in his arms without disturbijng her.  A clumsy thing to do.

Personally, I think that there was a watcher/getaway driver and the whole abduction nearly failed because that watcher failed to see Gerry and Jez chatting, (they were probably whispering with a child that sleeps badly ) and gave the go ahead when Gerry was still on the scene, yet unseen by him


There are other ideas/ theories.
Heri showed a different scenario again ... with just one abductor, which statistically, I realise, is more likely, but there are bits that niggle me with his scenario.  Probably bits of my theory might niggle him as well


We respect each others views.  And I am still waiting for an anti to come up with what they thought happened


What do you think happened DA?

[stephen25000]

Yes, I think there were three

Bundleman
A lifter who had some connection probably to OC and who Madeleine trusted (in case she awakened)
The watcher/ getaway driver


but it could have been done with two, in which case Bundleman was lifter as well as carrying away, but somehow swopped Madeleine over in his arms without disturbijng her.  A clumsy thing to do.

Personally, I think that there was a watcher/getaway driver and the whole abduction nearly failed because that watcher failed to see Gerry and Jez chatting, (they were probably whispering with a child that sleeps badly ) and gave the go ahead when Gerry was still on the scene, yet unseen by him


There are other ideas/ theories.
Heri showed a different scenario again ... with just one abductor, which statistically, I realise, is more likely, but there are bits that niggle me with his scenario.  Probably bits of my theory might niggle him as well


We respect each others views.  And I am still waiting for an anti to come up with what they thought happened


What do you think happened DA?

What a load of cobblers.

Can we have some proof of abduction please ?

[gavdalf]

well at least Sadie states its what she thinks which is totally fair, must say I do not think any of it happened and in fact has so many variables that the probability gets less and less, but fair play for writing what you think.

unfortunately I think she fell, when trying to look out the window.

[gavdalf]

Hi Martha

Because they left her and her 2 siblings on her own, so a death would relate to neglect would it not, Im asking as I don't know,  I was only saying what I thought as Sadie was asking for peoples thoughts on what happened.

[Lace]

I cannot believe that the McCanns would cover up the death of Madeleine because they left them alone in the apIartment.

If Madeleine did die due to a fall or whatever,    I would imagine it would have been dealt by the police with a lot less publicity then saying she had been abducted.

Saying she had been abducted brought the media flocking to them,  their faces in the paper, tv, everywhere, surely this was the last thing they would want if they were worried about being found to be neglectful.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Sadie I can proffer no conclusive theory as to what did or did not occur on the night that Madeleine McCann was allegedly abducted.
I come to this forum with a completely open mind and with an 'innocent until proven guilty' mindset. Gerry and Kate McCann are innocent of any wrong doing in the eyes of the Portuguese judiciary as is Robert Murat, whether there are moral issues with regard to leaving children alone in an unlocked apartment is for each individual member to make their own minds up on !

Of the two sightings I can only conclude that the Smith sighting is an independent sighting, Jane's sighting could hardly be construed as independent, as for the scent dogs of the GNR, well they do exactly 'what it says on the tin' they follow a requested scent trail overriding any periphery scents. Why they followed a trail to a car park and then abruptly stopped their search would suggest that Madeleine arrived at the car park either voluntarily i.e. awoke and wandered into harms way OR she was taken there involuntarily ! If this was the case then it is most likely she was taken from the car park in a vehicle which then negates the Smith sighting !

In essence and as I stated, nobody can offer any clear evidence of what did or did not happen, our views are merely supposition and conjecture, the unfortunate consequences of which have resulted in Gerry and Kate McCann and any persons connected to or, who have supported or helped them becoming the target of vicious heartless b........s who seem to revel in people's misery. I think the correct terminology is "Internet Trolls" !

[gavdalf]

The bottom line is that we really do not know, the witness statements, testimonies, timelines , inaccuracies all over the place, the family destroying the scene prior to calling the police if I recall, but that would be a natural reaction to finding your child missing, then the sub standard
policing, always wonder how were the PJ supposed to seal off the scene, when its already been tainted. The very far fetced scenario of how 1 or maybe 2 or 3 abductors did it. Im not saying impossible but very improbable

walk in through a door climb out a window, give me a break 

The is not 1 single piece of evidence to back up a break in, abductor, wondered off, or death, or cover up - all we know is a little girl is gone

for instance as we are on a JT thread, I don't believe she saw anything, basically I think she may well have to have been a ninja with night vision goggles, 1 to get past Jez and GM and then to see a tiny detail on something she didn't deem important unitil after the event, wow what a memory recall she has.

Basically I don't fully believe or trust anyone who is or has been involved in this case at all,
hence im open to all possibilities

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sadie,

Can you remind me what route you think your accomplice with the car would have taken as he scarpered? I can't find the place where you discussed that..

Thanks!

[sadie]

Sadie,

Can you remind me what route you think your accomplice with the car would have taken as he scarpered? I can't find the place where you discussed that..

Thanks!

I didn't discuss it because it was no longer so important as what happened to Madeleine.  Also apart from the fact that he must have started in a southerly direction, I dont know where he went then.  I can make educated guesses, but they would only be giesses and would point a finger at probably an innocent man.