Author Topic: A question for AnneGuedes the translator  (Read 41431 times)

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Offline Chinagirl

Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #90 on: May 06, 2013, 10:47:25 AM »
A

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #91 on: May 06, 2013, 11:00:44 AM »
Certain words and phrases were left out of some of the translations, including those by Morais, Astro and Ines.  I lost track of them all after a while.
The most shocking one for me was in The Final report.  "whether the child is alive or dead,  [OR]  which is the most likely."

I find it extremely unlikely that anyone would accidently leave out "OR" because it changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

Sorry, I can't remember who did that.

From what Tug read out:
"With regard to other possible crimes, whilst we cannot dismiss the possibility of a killing, given the high degree of probability, there is no evidence for this in the case records.

There's no "or" in there.
Eleanor meant another extract of the dispatch I'll try to analyse later.
Better read Astro's translation if you are interested in knowing how the PGR expresses himself. "Killing" imo isn't the right word, the PGR uses the more neutral "homicide". I'm not saying the professional translation is biased, but many inaccurate details change the general feeling.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2013, 11:08:11 AM »
Especially for you, Debunker:  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/evidences.html

 @)(++(*

Yawn

From your own cite:

"The word "evidences," as a plural of the noun "evidence," is currently used secularly at least seven times in the latest edition of the Columbia Encyclopedia (Sixth Edition 2001), mostly in a legal context."

and many others confirm my contention that evidences as a plural noun has been used extensively from Shakespeare to the present day, in the US and in the UK.

Thank you for assisting me in proving you wrong!

Offline Carana

Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #93 on: May 06, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »
I suppose there are different forms of 'interpreter. Perhaps he did informal interpretation for initial non written formal statements- basic questioning of Brits with no Portuguese.

But the point under discussion was not RM, but Natalia de Almeida. I've no doubt that she and the police officer did their best (and Gerry would have had very little sleep).

All I'm saying is that there was opportunity for confusion.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 03:23:16 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2013, 11:16:03 AM »
Certain words and phrases were left out of some of the translations, including those by Morais, Astro and Ines.  I lost track of them all after a while.
The most shocking one for me was in The Final report.  "whether the child is alive or dead,  [OR]  which is the most likely."

I find it extremely unlikely that anyone would accidently leave out "OR" because it changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

Sorry, I can't remember who did that.

From what Tug read out:
"With regard to other possible crimes, whilst we cannot dismiss the possibility of a killing, given the high degree of probability, there is no evidence for this in the case records.

There's no "or" in there.
Eleanor meant another extract of the dispatch I'll try to analyse later.
Better read Astro's translation if you are interested in knowing how the PGR expresses himself. "Killing" imo isn't the right word, the PGR uses the more neutral "homicide". I'm not saying the professional translation is biased, but many inaccurate details change the general feeling.


Yes, Eleanor does seem to be referring to a different passage. Apologies.


Offline Carana

Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2013, 11:32:21 AM »
- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4647.jpg


"…. nem enunciar sequer um prognóstico consistente* sobre o set destine e inclusiavamente - o mais* dramático - apurar se ainda está viva ou se está morta, como parece mais* provável. "


This would seem to be the passage. I still don't see an "or" in the original.

Edit: typos.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 03:27:32 PM by Carana »

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2013, 11:42:20 AM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)

debunker

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2013, 12:02:56 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)

The bottom line with Evidences is that it is more common in modern US usage, than British and that it is more common in legal and scientific writing than everyday life.

There are so many nuances in English that are missing in French German, Spanish, Portuguese etc.. It is possible to tell a considerable amount about a writer by their use of words, grammar and idiom in a way that is less common in other languages.

Offline Carana

Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2013, 12:05:28 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)



Halfway house.

"Evidences" exists, but is rarely used. I had never come across it in the plural before yesterday.


AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2013, 12:35:16 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)

The bottom line with Evidences is that it is more common in modern US usage, than British and that it is more common in legal and scientific writing than everyday life.

There are so many nuances in English that are missing in French German, Spanish, Portuguese etc.. It is possible to tell a considerable amount about a writer by their use of words, grammar and idiom in a way that is less common in other languages.
Nurse Debunker, though I reckon in you a certain sense of rigour (unfortunately sometimes masked by a lack of courtesy), I find this statement sententious and arbitrary. Ask grammarians !
And meditate : though the English vocabulary is larger than, for example, the French one, though Basic English has invaded the planet, why is French still the language of diplomacy ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2013, 12:38:31 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)



Halfway house.

"Evidences" exists, but is rarely used. I had never come across it in the plural before yesterday.
yes, it seems the word is used extensively as an uncountable noun. "Prova" isn't.

Offline Carana

Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2013, 12:47:18 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)



Halfway house.

"Evidences" exists, but is rarely used. I had never come across it in the plural before yesterday.
yes, it seems the word is used extensively as an uncountable noun. "Prova" isn't.


LOL Anne. But then we are back to the merrygoround of what "provas" actually means...


AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2013, 12:55:05 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)



Halfway house.

"Evidences" exists, but is rarely used. I had never come across it in the plural before yesterday.
yes, it seems the word is used extensively as an uncountable noun. "Prova" isn't.


LOL Anne. But then we are back to the merrygoround of what "provas" actually means...
The semantic field of "prova" could be larger and include part of "evidence"'s semantic field. Sometimes "evidence" is translated by "elements of proof" (elementos de prova).

debunker

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2013, 01:00:54 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)

The bottom line with Evidences is that it is more common in modern US usage, than British and that it is more common in legal and scientific writing than everyday life.

There are so many nuances in English that are missing in French German, Spanish, Portuguese etc.. It is possible to tell a considerable amount about a writer by their use of words, grammar and idiom in a way that is less common in other languages.
Nurse Debunker, though I reckon in you a certain sense of rigour (unfortunately sometimes masked by a lack of courtesy), I find this statement sententious and arbitrary. Ask grammarians !
And meditate : though the English vocabulary is larger than, for example, the French one, though Basic English has invaded the planet, why is French still the language of diplomacy ?

History. Why is French otherwise dying? Because of the hegemony of English.

English is the worst of all languages to be an international one. It is complex, nuanced and difficult to speak or write naturally as a native speaker.

However its vast vocabulary and incredibly mixed and complex grammar make it very difficult to speak in a way that is seen as correct.

Being neither Romance nor Germanic we often have twice the number of words for a concept. as any other language.

The French have the subjunctive, the English speakers have similar difficulties in virtually every department.

Additionally, unlike the French, we have no Academy, so English changes, absorbs and mutates at an incredible rate, and now has so many non-UK non-US etc speakers that various dialects exist that are equally acceptable as Eglis- Pakistani English is separate from Indian English, separate dialects with their own grammars and semantics exist for the Philippines, Malaysia, Puerto Rico, West Africa, East Africa, South Africa and an English shared by Arabic speakers.

English grammar makes no clear sense and has complex rules, half of which are derived inappropriately fro  Latin and enforced by pedants since Victorian times.

Additionally, because there is no overall authority, it is highly open to loan words from any other language and complete neologisms that flourish and then survive or die.

This Darwinian like progression and a lack of overall direction makes English probably one of the most complex languages available- a dreadful choice for an international language.

In no way am I saying that English is superior, merely that it is incredibly difficult to get right for the circumstances.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: A question for AnneGuedes the translator
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2013, 01:02:24 PM »
Db may be correct, strictly speaking, but I have never seen the word 'evidences' used - only 'evidence' - for singular and plural.  Using 'evidences' may not be  incorrect  but it's so unfamiliar and unused that it shows that the amateur translator is not as good as a professional - who I don't think would use that word nowadays.

IMO If you can't tell that something has been translated from another language into English - then that is the sign of a professional translator.  That is the acid test.   

 Anne's English is excellent, but it's not difficult to work out that it is not her first language.
Thank you, Benice ! I wish it were. English is my 3rd language, my second is German.
"Evidence" may be used as a countable noun or not. The difference is in the point of view. Whether you consider the "substance" of what is meant or a particular occurrence. Some words can be used both ways.
Is there evidence of this ? Há prova disso ? (uncountable in both languages)
They reviewed the available evidence (s?). Examinaram as provas disponíveis. (countable in both languages)



Halfway house.

"Evidences" exists, but is rarely used. I had never come across it in the plural before yesterday.
yes, it seems the word is used extensively as an uncountable noun. "Prova" isn't.

Extensively but by no means exclusively- there are incidences from Shakespeare to recent papers on Cosmology that use 'Evidences'.