The Portuguese Police thought the dogs were 100% accurate.

[puglove]

So you base your conclusion on what  is not   known,  rather than  what is 

That is how fantasy is defined,  John

NO. Fantasy is expecting a dog to tell you what you hope to hear. Dogs have many talents, but their main one is telling you what you want to know. And pleasing you. Dogs have relatively small brains and incredible noses. They have nasal passage the size of a tennis court, but they would kill for, and be distracted by a pig's ear. Don't rely on a dog.

I'll get my coat.

 

Oh dear. I get so wanky when I talk about dogs, they are my thing, but I would no more ask a dog's opinion about anything than have dinner on the moon. Springers used for sniffing are rehomed reprobrates, they only want to please their handlers. They are easily led. QED.

[AnneGuedes]

NO. Fantasy is expecting a dog to tell you what you hope to hear. Dogs have many talents, but their main one is telling you what you want to know. And pleasing you. Dogs have relatively small brains and incredible noses. They have nasal passage the size of a tennis court, but they would kill for, and be distracted by a pig's ear. Don't rely on a dog.

I'll get my coat.

 

Oh dear. I get so wanky when I talk about dogs, they are my thing, but I would no more ask a dog's opinion about anything than have dinner on the moon. Springers used for sniffing are rehomed reprobrates, they only want to please their handlers. They are easily led. QED.

The question is what would please the handler in this particular case ? And why ?

[puglove]

Oh dear. I get so wanky when I talk about dogs, they are my thing, but I would no more ask a dog's opinion about anything than have dinner on the moon. Springers used for sniffing are rehomed reprobrates, they only want to please their handlers. They are easily led. QED.

The question is what would please the handler in this particular case ? And why ?

From what I've seen, the dog is forced, forced and forced again to react to something that can be misconstrued.

[John]

The handler is in a win win situation. Nobody will ever know if the dogs were right or wrong unless of course Madeleine comes back some day.  It will then be Eddie's fault and not Mr Grime's.

[debunker]

The handler is in a win win situation. Nobody will ever know if the dogs were right or wrong unless of course Madeleine comes back some day.  It will then be Eddie's fault and not Mr Grime's.

And Eddies dead!

[AnneGuedes]

From what I've seen, the dog is forced, forced and forced again to react to something that can be misconstrued.

But, Shona, what about Mr Harrison who warranted the operation ? And besides if forced, why ?

[Joanne]

The case of Alie Berrelez says it all for me-well enough and I worked with the police dog training team for a while but you are the dog expert Shona, you deal with them day in day out.
Alie went missing and her scent was tracked for 15 miles and unfortunately was found dead.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/cold-case-year-murdered-1993-solved-dna/story?id=14510785
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyi7ZM6K2Qg

[John]

I believe the Portuguese were sold a pup.  His name was Eddie.

[Cariad]

I believe the Portuguese were sold a pup.  His name was Eddie.

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf

http://pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

Scientific experiments disagree, John.

The second link is particularly interesting as it was blinded, eliminating any handler cueing.

Before anyone starts, I'm well aware that dogs alert without forensic back up are useless, legally speaking. 

[AnneGuedes]

I believe the Portuguese were sold a pup.  His name was Eddie.

This belief is on what basis ? And why ?

[ferryman]

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf

http://pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

Scientific experiments disagree, John.

The second link is particularly interesting as it was blinded, eliminating any handler cueing.

Before anyone starts, I'm well aware that dogs alert without forensic back up are useless, legally speaking.

The point of principal relevance to Praia da Luz of the Oesterhelweg experiment is that it was an experiment driven by the principle of cross-contamination, singularly ignored by Grime in PdL

[AnneGuedes]

Before anyone starts, I'm well aware that dogs alert without forensic back up are useless, legally speaking.

Though the body wasn't found, the cadaver dogs' evidence was admitted by the Kane County Court in the Montano case.
http://beaconnews.suntimes.com/news/23628300-418/kane-county-prosecutors-challenges-overcome-in-montano-case.html
Scientific teams are making research on an electronical nose that would identify the human VOCs vs the animal ones (each specie has a specific combination/ratio of VOCs).
But first they're trying to establish what a training aid should be in order to make sure that the dog didn't make confusion between human remains and chicken ones, in a legal perspective.

[AnneGuedes]

The point of principal relevance to Praia da Luz of the Oesterhelweg experiment is that it was an experiment driven by the principle of cross-contamination, singularly ignored by Grime in PdL

How do you know that ? Is Mr Grime an enemy of yours ?

[John]

This belief is on what basis ? And why ?

From the title of the thread.  The PJ believed the dogs to be infallible.  Thus the sold a pup idiom.

[ferryman]

How do you know that ? Is Mr Grime an enemy of yours ?

I know it because I've read the carpet square experiment and I've read the case files of the Madeleine investigation