Author Topic: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã  (Read 39027 times)

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Offline Chinagirl

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2013, 12:28:37 PM »
In attributing Amaral's actions to " Marialvismo" I think you are attributing more nobility to the man's actions than is warranted. 

I can recall the Jaguar Car bought and flaunted with the proceeeds of the book, the earring, the birthday party etc.  And all the while owing significant sums to the state, to his own brother, his house about to be reposessed, jeaopodising the roof over his wife and daughters heads......

So before we get too romantic about his motivation, lets look at another couple of words:  Greed.  Mysogony.   

Oh, I can assure you that I don't attribute any romanticism to Amaral's motivation, or to the concept of Marialismo.  Personally, I despise the idea of hegemonic masculinity because it underlies and tends to excuse domestic violence.

I agree that Amaral's main reasons for writing his book are greed and misogyny.
A

Offline Eleanor

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2013, 12:30:44 PM »

Like I said.  A Fascist Mind Set.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2013, 12:33:54 PM »

But marialvism is not simply a question of basic machismo, or manly honour: it has a darker side too. An integral aspect of the concept is the dominance of the male over the female, an absolute need for inequality between the sexes, the practice of hegemonic masculinity. Though there is no explicit reliance on the Church in marialvism it relies on the concepts of the Immaculate Conception, Annunciation, etc. to define the woman and her role and it repeats the paternalism found in both mediaeval society and the Church to construct a role for women.

Marialvism is a concept of masculinity based on honour (aristocracy's value) opposed to rationalism (bourgeoisie's value).
In spite of a show off of paternalism the women have the real power, it's not per chance that Jesus' mother appeared in Fatima. They manipulate the strings, back stage.
The marialva is neither individualist nor libertine, he's nothing to do with Don Juan.
It's a model, connoted with reactionary mentality, like the saudade (no translation in English, but one in German, Sehnsucht), the fado (fatum) and the sebastianism, an ideal which in fact no man achieves but might control and orientate choices and actions and be expressed in the way of speaking, gestures and behaviour with others.
One thing is to try and understand Gonçalo Amaral, another to try and understand why he was made an anti-hero. Do only cultural factors explain this ?



debunker

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2013, 12:44:55 PM »
It was my understanding that in Portugal freedom of speech trumped the individual's right not to be slandered and libelled so my question was whether this recent decision in favour of Murat might be taken as a promising sign from the McCanns' point of view?

I think that the reversal of  the ban on the book led people to believe this when that is not the case. As I understand the ban was overturned because the book had not yet been shown to be libellous as the case had not been heard. That ruling did not show that the book was not libellous.

That makes perfect sense Davel. 

What I find incomprehensible is that the McCanns were apparently not legally represented at the court case when the ban was overturned.     Can anyone confirm whether that is actually true please?  If it is  - I find that to be quite astonishing.

Yes, although on a nit-picking point of pedantry, there is a legal distinction between that considered libellous (adjective), meaning, tending to lower reputation, but without being actionable, and libel (noun), meaning both lowering reputation and being actionable.

Where do you get those interesting definitions from?

Mainly it is an inference I have drawn from reading legal summaries of cases, where the distinction seems to be quite clear.

Not sure you'd get the distinction drawn out from dictionary definitions.

But I'm quite happy to be corrected if I'm wrong ...

I see you've dived in with a dictionary definition.

I am afraid that unless you can find examples of how libellous is used in this strange way instead if its well attested use as the adjective/adverb of the noun or verb libel.

Otherwise you are just using it in a non-normative manner- your own private language.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2013, 12:48:03 PM »
Read a few legal texts and get back to me.

I'm not going to derail this thread.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2013, 02:46:12 PM »
Thread moved
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 02:48:37 PM by AnneGuedes »

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2013, 02:47:38 PM »
It was my understanding that in Portugal freedom of speech trumped the individual's right not to be slandered and libelled so my question was whether this recent decision in favour of Murat might be taken as a promising sign from the McCanns' point of view?

I think that the reversal of  the ban on the book led people to believe this when that is not the case. As I understand the ban was overturned because the book had not yet been shown to be libellous as the case had not been heard. That ruling did not show that the book was not libellous.

That makes perfect sense Davel. 

What I find incomprehensible is that the McCanns were apparently not legally represented at the court case when the ban was overturned.     Can anyone confirm whether that is actually true please?  If it is  - I find that to be quite astonishing.
Nobody was there, Benice, it's a judgement on a judgement... the Supreme Court considered there was no motive for a ban. Supreme Courts rarely lose an opportunity to show their superiority. But they don't have the last word. An appeal was possible. And was made.

As I keep on saying, the Supreme Court ruling was not on the question of whether the material was defamatory, but was about whether it was so damaging that the book be kept from the public until the defamation case was held. It is still quite possible that the book will be found defamatory.

Offline John

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2013, 03:13:14 PM »
Please note edit to the thread title.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 03:20:03 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2013, 03:41:22 PM »
Here is another article which I came across this evening referring to the successful libel action.  There can be no doubt that the writing is well and truly on the wall for Mr Amaral.

I cannot understand how a detective with such experience could have made such a bad error of judgment.  Can anyone suggest a motive for putting his whole life's work in jeopardy for the sake of a stupid hunch?

http://algarvedailynews.com/news/9710-correio-da-manha-pays-robert-murat-damages

I really don't understand  ...  in what way, specifically,  will Murat winning a libel case against a Portuguese newspaper,  affect the McCann's libel case against  Amaral  ?

I never mentioned the McCanns Icabodcrane?   This win for Robert will not do Mr Amaral any favours in the long run and adds to his already damaged credibility.

Didn't some of the tapas 9 put Mr Murat in the frame too?  They might be next?

But you quoted an article about Murat winning a libel action against a Portuguese newspaper,  and followed with the conclusion that  there was no doubt that the writing is well and truely on the wall for Amaral 

In what way does this libel award affect Amaral at all  ?  ...  let alone to the extent where  'the writing is on the wall'  for him  ?

Mr Amaral was the coordinator in the investigation which promoted 'arguido' or official suspect status against Gerry, Kate and Robert Murat based on flawed reasoning and false allegations.  The newspaper which libeled Robert Murat did so on the basis of leaks by the police.  The appeal court which awarded the €15,000 damages to Murat acknowledged this in their decision.  This will inevitably have an effect on any future such actions and in particular the civil action being brought against Amaral by the McCanns.


« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 03:57:21 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2013, 03:49:43 PM »
In attributing Amaral's actions to " Marialvismo" I think you are attributing more nobility to the man's actions than is warranted. 

I can recall the Jaguar Car bought and flaunted with the proceeeds of the book, the earring, the birthday party etc.  And all the while owing significant sums to the state, to his own brother, his house about to be reposessed, jeaopodising the roof over his wife and daughters heads......

So before we get too romantic about his motivation, lets look at another couple of words:  Greed.  Mysogony.   

You could be right and greed and misogyny may be the underlying factors. But Marialismo could still be relevant. It would give him the excuse to behave in that way. In a society where such machismo and homogenic masculinity is seen as something to be praised and even respected then it would be natural for people to seek such praise and respect (even if their actual motives are not actually in the honourable tradition).

I agree with what you say Gilet.  But not only did Amaral's cultural attitudes (his honour) seriously influence his decision making, but other cultural differences worked against the McCann IMO.

No-one would  bat an eyelid at children going to bed at 7.00p.m. in the UK, but in Portugal children stay up for many hours longer as a matter of course. 

It's quite normal in the UK for priests/vicars etc to give pastoral care to parishioners suffering great anguish, but in Portugal you only call a priest if someone has died.

British 'reserve' and the 'stiff upper lip' concept is not a part of Portugese culture as far as I know.

All of the above cultural differences - together with difficulties associated with the language barrier, spelt 'bad news' for the McCanns  - as instead of 'explanations 'being given by Amaral, they were used against them to deliberately heighten suspicion. IMO


Yep. I have the same perception concerning cultural differences and the misunderstandings that they have apparently led to.

Offline John

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2013, 04:05:34 PM »
I totally agree, family matters so much more in Portugal than it does in the UK.  They don't stick their old folk into nursing homes to the same extent which happens in the UK.  Elderly grandparents are part of the extended family in Portugal and not something to be farmed out to the nearest old folks home and more often than enough totally forgotten about.  You wouldn't get the average Portuguese family leaving their children in an apartment while they went out for an evenings wining and dining.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

amaraltheofficeboy

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2013, 04:16:21 PM »
what's all this about cultural analysis - he wrote the book for money.

Offline Benice

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #132 on: May 11, 2013, 04:18:39 PM »
I totally agree, family matters so much more in Portugal than it does in the UK.  They don't stick their old folk into nursing homes to the same extent which happens in the UK.  Elderly grandparents are part of the extended family in Portugal and not something to be farmed out to the nearest old folks home and more often than enough totally forgotten about.  You wouldn't get the average Portuguese family leaving their children in an apartment while they went out for an evenings wining and dining.

If you don't mind my saying - I think that's a bit of a sweeping statement John.  There are thousands of family members caring for elderly relatives in their homes - in fact the subject of these 'carers'  has been discussed on the News here during the last few days.   My own friend took care of her mother until she died aged 94 a couple of years ago.  She had alzeimers - and it was very difficult  - but the idea of putting her in a home wasn't an option to my friend.

Yes Portuguese family members wouldn't leave their children asleep in bed - because they would take them with them to wine and dine late into the evening.   But that has more to do with the climate than family values IMO.







The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2013, 04:24:37 PM »
The newspaper which libeled Robert Murat did so on the basis of leaks by the police.  The appeal court which awarded the €15,000 damages to Murat acknowledged this in their decision. 
No John. The newspaper apparently was briefed by the same person, a convict (he didn't say that to the CdM),who briefed the PJ.
Cumpre desde já concluir, que como resulta de todos os elementos dados como provados, não se pode concluir que as informações veiculadas sejam falsas ou obtidas em violação do segredo justiça. Quanto a este último aspecto, a verdade é que nenhuma prova foi feita e no que toca às notícias divulgadas e no que toca à falsidade das notícias, também nenhuma prova cabal se fez da sua falsidade, sendo certo que os Réus lograram provar ter verificado as fontes, cruzando a informação, ponderando as notícias.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Robert Murat wins libel case against national daily Correio da Manhã
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2013, 04:26:54 PM »
Personally, I find a Policeman driving his young daughter around when he was drunk to be quite terrifying.  He also threatened to kill his wife, and the husband of his mistress and to abduct her daughter.
Is this Cultural?  Or is it a left over from The Salazar Regime when PJ Officers were unquestionable.
Nothing ever came of the complaints against Amaral on any count.  All of which are a matter of record.