Author Topic: The 'Hate' Question.  (Read 36223 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mo Stache

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #105 on: May 15, 2013, 01:29:02 PM »
No.

Knowing now what I know about Portuguese evidence gathering, I would be very economical with information that I would not want in the public view. Not at all in the interests of justice.
I am interested to hear more about your view on 'not in the interest of justice'. Could you please elaborate?

Any rule that makes it more difficult to get true information in a criminal investigation is 'not in the interests of justice.'

Consider: You witness a crime as you leave your lover's house; you are married. If you give a statement to the Portuguese police, you know that your spouse will read that statement in the fullness of time.

I suspect that most people's memory would become somewhat hazy in such a circumstance!
I understand what you have said, but is it a 'rule' to publish material to the public domain in Portugal? I can't recall having seen any other missing child case where the files have been released to the public domain and allowed on the internet.

It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold by police, to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#
It's not only the Portuguese who are at fault though. Do you remember someone in the UK who wasn't related to the McCann's and who paid to obtain a copy of Madeleine's birth certificate and posted it to the internet? The release of the police files also resulted in some keyboard detectives obtaining private information and post it to the internet.

Birth Certificates are in the Public DOmain as a matter of policy. Police investigations should not be.

The release of the files has kept the ghouls going for years!
Yes, I know that birth certificates are in the public domain, but personally I feel it was uncalled for obtaining it for the sole purpose of ghouling.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2013, 01:43:40 PM »
Under Portuguese law, case files are put into the public domain after a period of time.  Usually they are simply made avaialble for inspection at the local police HQ, but in this case it was decided to put them onto a DVD due to the intense interest.  Otherwise, it would have been chaos with every newspaper wanting a copy.  But that is not the norm.

The procedure of making investigation files available to the public is an undertandable reaction to the fascist regime, and of the judicial system, and is a demonstration of openness in criminal investigations. 

The UK does not follow the same procedure.

Offline Mo Stache

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2013, 01:46:54 PM »
Under Portuguese law, case files are put into the public domain after a period of time.  Usually they are simply made avaialble for inspection at the local police HQ, but in this case it was decided to put them onto a DVD due to the intense interest.  Otherwise, it would have been chaos with every newspaper wanting a copy.  But that is not the norm.

The procedure of making investigation files available to the public is an undertandable reaction to the fascist regime, and of the judicial system, and is a demonstration of openness in criminal investigations. 

The UK does not follow the same procedure.
Thank you for the insight.

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2013, 02:20:57 PM »
No.

Knowing now what I know about Portuguese evidence gathering, I would be very economical with information that I would not want in the public view. Not at all in the interests of justice.
I am interested to hear more about your view on 'not in the interest of justice'. Could you please elaborate?

Any rule that makes it more difficult to get true information in a criminal investigation is 'not in the interests of justice.'

Consider: You witness a crime as you leave your lover's house; you are married. If you give a statement to the Portuguese police, you know that your spouse will read that statement in the fullness of time.

I suspect that most people's memory would become somewhat hazy in such a circumstance!
I understand what you have said, but is it a 'rule' to publish material to the public domain in Portugal? I can't recall having seen any other missing child case where the files have been released to the public domain and allowed on the internet.

It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold by police, to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#
It's not only the Portuguese who are at fault though. Do you remember someone in the UK who wasn't related to the McCann's and who paid to obtain a copy of Madeleine's birth certificate and posted it to the internet? The release of the police files also resulted in some keyboard detectives obtaining private information and post it to the internet.

Birth Certificates are in the Public DOmain as a matter of policy. Police investigations should not be.

The release of the files has kept the ghouls going for years!

So does that give a Portuguese blogger, the right to get a UK childs birth certificate?
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline Luz

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2013, 02:35:06 PM »
Why is it assumed that if you express any doubt in the abduction theory, that doubt is driven by hate for the McCanns ? Why do members think that the McCanns inspire such hatred in otherwise intelligent and compassionate people ?

I'm afraid that's  a primary reaction. When confronted with something that is bothering, less structured personalities tend to bend towards the most basic emotions: hate is one of them alongside with rage and envy. When questioned on their beliefs these personalities use "projection" and attribute to others their most demolishing emotions. (check Melanie Klein; Bion; Winnicott,...)

debunker

  • Guest
Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2013, 02:36:15 PM »
No.

Knowing now what I know about Portuguese evidence gathering, I would be very economical with information that I would not want in the public view. Not at all in the interests of justice.
I am interested to hear more about your view on 'not in the interest of justice'. Could you please elaborate?

Any rule that makes it more difficult to get true information in a criminal investigation is 'not in the interests of justice.'

Consider: You witness a crime as you leave your lover's house; you are married. If you give a statement to the Portuguese police, you know that your spouse will read that statement in the fullness of time.

I suspect that most people's memory would become somewhat hazy in such a circumstance!
I understand what you have said, but is it a 'rule' to publish material to the public domain in Portugal? I can't recall having seen any other missing child case where the files have been released to the public domain and allowed on the internet.

It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold by police, to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#
It's not only the Portuguese who are at fault though. Do you remember someone in the UK who wasn't related to the McCann's and who paid to obtain a copy of Madeleine's birth certificate and posted it to the internet? The release of the police files also resulted in some keyboard detectives obtaining private information and post it to the internet.

Birth Certificates are in the Public DOmain as a matter of policy. Police investigations should not be.

The release of the files has kept the ghouls going for years!

So does that give a Portuguese blogger, the right to get a UK childs birth certificate?

Yes. Although you can be asked for cause if you want an old birth certificate of a young child because of their misuse (John Stonehouse etc) in setting up a fake identity using the BC of a child who died young.

Offline Joanne

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2013, 02:54:39 PM »
Why is it assumed that if you express any doubt in the abduction theory, that doubt is driven by hate for the McCanns ? Why do members think that the McCanns inspire such hatred in otherwise intelligent and compassionate people ?

Because the situation was completely preventable even though gerry Mccann thinks it's the same as having dinner in their garden, then the Mccann blamed the police, phoned the media, then opened a website and fund just days after Madeleine was gone and then used the money to pay their mortgage. They're on the news all the time and daytime shows (despite having other children), they jump on any bandwagon going, got Scotland Yard involved despite it being a recession and other families ie the Lee family, Lee Boxall's family and the Needhams never got this support.
If they wanted the single life they shouldn't have had kids and they are profesional people, they should have known better. Then they make Kate Mccann an ambassador for missing people.
I don't believe a word of what they say, they run their campaign like a business and I believe there is more to this than meets the eye and I am sick of people trying to justify their behaviour and making defamatory remarks about them because they don't support the Mccanns, they must know that attracting the media is a double edge sword and they're going to get judged when the expect everyone all over the world to find a child they have lost-needlessly or so they say.

Offline Luz

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2013, 03:14:10 PM »
The moral reply is highly fallacious, especially when referring to a highly immoral business - the madeleine's gold mine.



Time to go to work.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 03:18:34 PM by Luz »

Offline Angelo222

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2013, 03:29:58 PM »
Well done Joanne.   You have just answered the hate question in a single post.     8@??)( @)(++(*
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2013, 03:31:30 PM »
The moral reply is highly fallacious, especially when referring to a highly immoral business - the madeleine's gold mine.



Time to go to work.

No different to Amarals, highly immoral business -Madeleine's gold mine though, is it?
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline Joanne

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2013, 03:33:13 PM »
Oh, I forgot the book too.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2013, 03:39:06 PM »
It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#

I have removed the name of the alleged seller DCI unless you have evidence to support what you posted.  Didn't Kates diaries end up being printed in a UK national newspaper which later had to pay substantial damages.  I think it was one of the Murdoch rags?
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2013, 03:41:38 PM »
Its in the Leveson files, Angelo. Will find it later  8((()*/
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline faithlilly

Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2013, 03:52:15 PM »
It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#

I have removed the name of the alleged seller DCI unless you have evidence to support what you posted.  Didn't Kates diaries end up being printed in a UK national newspaper which later had to pay substantial damages.  I think it was one of the Murdoch rags?

Strange the McCanns didn't sue the Portuguese newspaper that first published the diary.Perhaps they weren't as willing to role over as the UK press seem to be ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline DCI

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Total likes: 6
  • Why are some folks so sick in the head!!!
Re: The 'Hate' Question.
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2013, 05:11:20 PM »
It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#

I have removed the name of the alleged seller DCI unless you have evidence to support what you posted.  Didn't Kates diaries end up being printed in a UK national newspaper which later had to pay substantial damages.  I think it was one of the Murdoch rags?

It seems if you pay good Euro's for info in Portugal, you can buy anything. Just like Kate's diary was sold to the highest bidder. That was sold to a newspaper for 18,000 Euro's, if I remember correctly.  8()(((@#

I have removed the name of the alleged seller DCI unless you have evidence to support what you posted.  Didn't Kates diaries end up being printed in a UK national newspaper which later had to pay substantial damages.  I think it was one of the Murdoch rags?

Statement of Daniel Sanderson

In response to the numbered questions set out in the letter from the Leveson Inquiry dated

2nd December 2011.

1. Please explain exactly how NoW obtained a copy of Dr Kate McCann’s diary: you are not
required to name any sources, but you are required to identify the precise provenance of
the diary, explain the circumstances in which NoW received it, and confirm (if it be the
case) that it was of the original which had been seized by the Portuguese authorities.

A story appeared in The Sun newspaper on July 28, 2008, which said that extracts of Kate
McCann’s diary had emerged in Portugal, covering the first weeks after her daughter
Madeleine disappeared.

In the article there were two extracts that Mrs McCann had made in her diary.
I was asked by my news editor lan Edmondson to track down the person who was in
possession of the diary and was leaking extracts of it in Portugal.
After Mr Edmondson agreed, I called several newspapers in Portugal to ascertain who had
the diary.

I was put in touch with a journalist in Portugal who confirmed that they were in possession
of a copy of the diary and were willing to sell it to the NoW for, if my memory serves me
correctly, 18,000 Euros.
I believe the newspaper agreed to pay something like 9,000 Euros immediately and the rest
on publication of the story. The purchase was authorised by Mr Edmondson.
I liaised with Mr Edmondson and was told to ask a freelance journalist called Gerard
Couzens, who is based in Spain, to travel to Portugal to meet the journalist and collect the
diary.


From there my involvement ended until the diary reached the offices of the NoW.
My understanding is that Mr Edmondson took control of the diary’s delivery to our offices.

I believe that Mr Couzens met the journalist on Friday September 5, 2008 in Portugal and
paid her Euro 9,000 for a copy of the diary.
It’s my understanding that Mr Couzens delivered the diary to the NoW’s offices on Saturday
September 6, 2008.


I was first made aware that the newspaper had the document when I returned to the office
after the weekend on Tuesday September 9, 2008.
Mr Edmondson showed me the diary that morning.
It did not appear to be the original diary, but a copy that had been translated from English
into Portuguese.

2. Was the copy NoW obtained in English or Portuguese?
The NoW copy was in Portuguese.

3. What steps, if any, did you take to establish its authenticity and that it was a document
which you were entitled to possess?
Over the course of the working week commencing on Tuesday September 9th 2008, I
organised for the diary to be translated back into English using a London-based translation
service (I cannot recall the name).

It was a laborious task and the final section was completed on Friday September 12, 2008 -
two days before the story was published.
I spent the week writing the story as and when sections had been successfully translated.
In terms of its authenticity, we approached the diary from the viewpoint that it was a fake.
We had to cross check every entry against our online cuttings system to check that each
entry was correct and the diary was genuine.
For example, if there was an entry where it said the McCanns had met The Pope that day,
I had to check in cuttings that newspapers had reported that the McCanns had indeed met
The Pope on the corresponding date.

My understanding of the situation was that the news editor, Mr Edmondson, would also
confirm with the McCann’s press spokesman Clarence Mitchell that the diary was genuine.

4. What was paid for the diary and to whom?

I believe 18,000 Euros were paid to the Portuguese journalist (the P J). It was paid in two
parts; 9,000 Euros up front and 9,000 Euros on publication. I can’t be certain of this figure,
but it is certainly a fairly accurate estimate. I am aware of the approximate figure because
that is the price that had been agreed with the PJ in my initial phone conversations with the
PJ. The PJ set the price, which I had communicated to Mr Edmondson. Mr Edmondson then
authorised both payments to the source. The PJ then contacted me after publication to
organise the second payment, which was authorised by Mr Edmondson.

5. By what reasoning process did you and others at News International (whom the Inquiry
requires you to identify) deem it appropriate to publish extracts from the diary given its
the obvious privacy implications, including the fact that you knew or must have know that
the diary was confidential (if it is your position that you did not know this, please explain
its basis)?
In order to answer this question, I need to explain how a national newspaper works. As a
reporter, I reported to my line manager Mr Edmondson, the news editor or assistant editor
(news) as was his official title. Mr Edmondson reported to the editor, Colin Myler, and other
senior executives.
Once I had obtained the diary, obviously there were a number of discussions between
myself and Mr Edmondson as to how the piece should be written sensitively.

Then after I had written it, the decision to publish ultimately rested with Mr Myler.
I feel that it is appropriate to note that in my role as a reporter, I did not have any say as to
whether the story was published.
But I think in terms of considering it being appropriate to publish Mrs McCann’s diary and
the obvious considerations over privacy, the view taken by senior executives was that there
were all sorts of false allegations being made about the McCanns and they really were being
pilloried in the press, that this account gave a true picture of the McCanns and dispelled
some of the lies being written about them.
The NoW had always been wholly supportive of the McCanns’ search for their daughter. Two
weeks after she went missing in 2007, the newspaper teamed up with wealthy businessmen
to pledge £1.5 million to anyone who could help with information leading to Madeleine’s
safe return.
However, with hindsight, the decision to publish Mrs McCann’s diary was clearly the wrong
one. Having read how the article made Mrs McCann feel, I intend to apologise to her for
writing the story once I have given evidence.
Although I feel it is important to point out that I had no say in whether or not the diary was
published.

6. Why did you not contact the Dr Kate McCann in advance of publication in order to check
the facts and in particular to obtain her consent to publication?
It was clear to me that we could not publish the story without the McCanns permission.
My understanding of the situation was that Mr Edmondson had sought permission to
publish the diary from Mr Mitchell.
I acquired this understanding because Mr Edmondson told me that he was going to speak to
Mr Mitchell about the story at the end of the week.
It is only natural Mr Edmondson sought that permission because he had an on going
relationship with Mr Mitchell. As I understand it, they spoke almost daily on the phone to
talk about stories connected to the case.
[I have only spoken to Mr Mitchell once about three weeks ago to inform him of my
intention to apologise to the McCanns for my involvement in the story that upset Mrs
McCann.]
I didn’t actually ever have the conversation with Mr Edmondson specifically that he had
received permission to publish from the McCanns.
I assumed that because that is what he said he intended to do and the story was published,
that he had received permission from Mr Mitchell.
However, following publication, News International released a statement saying they
published the extracts in the belief held in good faith that that they had permission to do so.

They said it was now clear that their belief was misplaced and that Kate neither approved of
nor knew that the extracts were to be published.
I believe that the newspaper agreed to make a donation to be used in the search for
Madeleine and published a correction on September 21, 2008.
It is clear from that statement that Mr Myler believed that the newspaper had permission to
publish by the McCanns when it had not.
I was not responsible for contacting Mr Mitchell to obtain permission to publish Mrs
McCann’s diary.

7. What consideration if any was given by you to any public interest considerations; and if
so, what were they?
As I said in response to question five, I think the view at the NoW was that there were a lot
of lies being published about the McCanns and this was a supportive piece that put the
record straight.
It was part of the Portuguese police case into the disappearance of Madeleine and it was an
account of how Mrs McCann was feeling after her daughter vanished.

8. What legal advice, if any, did you take on any of foregoing issues?
As I understand it, Mr Edmondson, Mr Myler and other senior executives would have taken
advice from Tom Crone, News International’s former legal affairs manager. In his absence,
they would have sought advice from Justin Walford, The Sun’s legal manager.
I wasn’t party to any of the legal conversations concerning publication.

9. Please outline any discussions you had, if any, at sub-editorial and editorial level on the
foregoing issues.
I liaised with Mr Edmondson about how the piece should be written in terms of sensitivity
and the evidence I had gathered over its authenticity.
It is normal for a reporter to discuss with his news editor how he (the news editor) wants a
story written.
It was my job to seek to determine that the diary was genuine and ensure that it was written
as sensitively as possible.

Daniel Sanderson
.... 12.2011
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/