Eddie's alert in the garden

[pathfinder73]

Eddie will alert to body fluids that include blood because he alerts to blood.

[pathfinder73]

[pegasus]

More details about the http://s23.postimg.org/8cvj7h8nf/cadaverdog2.png NY case mentioned by Pathfinder

"Later that day, the defendant's step mother met with Det. Gregory at his office. She informed the detective that the defendant had borrowed a 1995 Nissan Pathfinder (SUV) on June 30, 2001 and returned the vehicle on July 1, 2001 at about 3:00 p.m. Det. Gregory then drove the defendant's step mother home. During the ride, the detective asked the step mother if there was anything unusual about the SUV after it was returned to the step mother by the defendant. The step mother replied, "Funny that you should ask me that, my daughter on our way to the mall said to me, 'Mommy the back of the truck stinks'"".
 

[Carana]

Eddie will alert to body fluids that include blood because he alerts to blood.

"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."


Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.

[pegasus]

"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."


Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.

Yes it's a US source. BTW a CSST experiment found that the minimum post-mortem interval required for even 1 out of 7 cadaver dogs to alert is 1 hour 25 minutes.
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

[pathfinder73]

"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."


Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.

The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained
exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as
specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider
variety of scenarios. Pig is used as it has been proven in training and
operationally over the last 20 years to be a reliable analogue for human
remains detecting training for dogs. The possession of human remains for the
purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated
assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.
These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I
introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the
animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet
cadaver not processed food for human consumption).

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[Carana]

Yes it's a US source. BTW a CSST experiment found that the minimum post-mortem interval required for even 1 out of 7 cadaver dogs to alert is 1 hour 25 minutes.
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

Thanks, I remember reading that.

They needed to agree on terms to describe the dogs' various training capabilities for the purposes of the paper, but the terms don't appear to be universal. The problem is that Eddie doesn't fit into any of those categories. Neither does Keela, actually.

NB: Just seen the full paragraph on that:

"6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search. All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively conditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue. It must be kept in mind, however, that many dogs will react or show interest to any decomposed tissue at certain short times during the decomposition process."

I haven't found anything that specifically states what Eddie would or wouldn't react to in working mode (I have concerning Keela, but not Eddie).

I would normally assume that he had been desensitised to urine / faeces, but something that always intrigued me in the clothes video was the lack of underwear (aside from one pair of knickers). Was underwear deliberately excluded, or did none (aside from that one pair) just not happen to be in that box?

There is also Eddie's first alert (which for some reason didn't make it to the list noted by the PJ) of the tiny blue shorts. Could a toddler's wee-wee accident have contaminated other clothes in that box?

[Carana]

The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained
exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as
specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider
variety of scenarios. Pig is used as it has been proven in training and
operationally over the last 20 years to be a reliable analogue for human
remains detecting training for dogs. The possession of human remains for the
purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated
assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.
These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I
introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the
animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet
cadaver not processed food for human consumption).

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Why was he introducing dead piglets to dogs trained solely on human remains? Was that just an experiment?

[pathfinder73]

Why was he introducing dead piglets to dogs trained solely on human remains? Was that just an experiment?

To prove that it's the same for all cadaver dogs.

[Carana]

To prove that it's the same for all cadaver dogs.

Possibly. But then that also illustrates that even those trained solely on human remains are reacting to certain VOCs common to both (fewer than I'd originally assumed, depending on which research paper one wades through).

And then there was the research paper about chickens having more in common with humans than pigs.

I don't think they've got it worked out yet...

[pegasus]

Thanks, I remember reading that.

They needed to agree on terms to describe the dogs' various training capabilities for the purposes of the paper, but the terms don't appear to be universal. The problem is that Eddie doesn't fit into any of those categories. Neither does Keela, actually.

NB: Just seen the full paragraph on that:

"6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search. All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively conditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue. It must be kept in mind, however, that many dogs will react or show interest to any decomposed tissue at certain short times during the decomposition process."

I haven't found anything that specifically states what Eddie would or wouldn't react to in working mode (I have concerning Keela, but not Eddie).

I would normally assume that he had been desensitised to urine / faeces, but something that always intrigued me in the clothes video was the lack of underwear (aside from one pair of knickers). Was underwear deliberately excluded, or did none (aside from that one pair) just not happen to be in that box?

There is also Eddie's first alert (which for some reason didn't make it to the list noted by the PJ) of the tiny blue shorts. Could a toddler's wee-wee accident have contaminated other clothes in that box?

Consider this:
Every toilet, and the floor around it (unless it has just been cleaned or is a female only toilet) is contaminated by numerous splashes of human urine.
Eddie did not alert in 5A bathroom, 5B bathroom, 5D bathroom, 5H bathroom, 4G bathroom, CL bathroom, Rua das Flores bathroom.
It is evident that Eddie, much as as some people would like him to, does not alert to urine.

[pathfinder73]

Common sense should tell you all that but you don't see much on this board where it comes to dissing dogs.

[pegasus]

Did no-one listen to that word in the audio of the garden dog video I couldn't make out?
Also does anyone see the dog attempting to dig?

[Carana]

Consider this:
Every toilet, and the floor around it (unless it has just been cleaned or is a female only toilet) is contaminated by numerous splashes of human urine.
Eddie did not alert in 5A bathroom, 5B bathroom, 5D bathroom, 5H bathroom, 4G bathroom, CL bathroom, Rua das Flores bathroom.
It is evident that Eddie, much as as some people would like him to, does not alert to urine.

I'm aware of that, but he could be directed away from loos. The bathtub would be of more interest. I don't see how it could be useful for his work to NOT be desensitised: I'm thinking of all the grotty places such dogs would be expected to search (underground passways, etc.).

At the same time, I'm still intrigued by the lack of underwear and the fact that while there was a clear list for Keela, there wasn't one for Eddie. And the unclear response concerning the Jersey tissues.

A different possibility, that is something we still don't know, is if there is some kind of crawl space under that end of the building, and whether it was accessible.

[Alice Purjorick]

Strawman.

Those of us on the side of truth of justice (for both Madeleine and Kate and Gerry) have never (particularly) had a grouse against the dog (even if the conclusion of official enquiry into the Haut de la Garenne debacle was that the dog was probably not very good).

Our grouse has long been against the dog-handler.

Get the distinction?

I did reply out of courtesy.
The mods appear not to have liked my turn of phrase.
Never mind eh ?