Author Topic: Pamela Fenn, two questions:  (Read 28580 times)

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AnneGuedes

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Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2013, 11:00:25 AM »
Could I suggest that admin contacts Mrd Glynn rather than several people pester her.  Assuming the Mrs Glynn whom Anne found in the public phone book is the same Mrs Glynn whom Mrs Fenn referred to, what questions would you want to ask her??   >@@(*&)
Two Edna G. living in Praia da Luz ?

ferryman

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Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2013, 11:01:38 AM »
I have taken the plunge and subscribed to The Times.

The profile runs to 3 pages.

I will add the other pages in edits.  Here's the first:

Robert Murat, a suspect in the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine McCann, adored his own daughter and desperately missed her after his marriage broke down.
The former car salesman “lost” her when his wife, Dawn, returned to her native Norfolk with their daughter four months after the family had emigrated to Portugal because she was homesick and he stayed behind.
Mr Murat, 33, whose father is Portuguese, carried on as a self-employed property consultant on the Algarve, but visited the child regularly.
Gareth Bailey, a close friend and former colleague of the suspect at Inchcape Autoparc used car dealership in Norwich, where Mr Murat had worked for four years, said the family embarked on a new life in Portugal in 2005.
Married in 1994 in Deerham, Norfolk, the couple had been trying for a baby for years until she fell pregnant in 2002 and had looked forward to moving abroad.
”But Dawn was unhappy in Portugal and became homesick,” Mr Bailey said. “She is a Norfolk girl and her family are in Norfolk.
”She only stayed with Rob for three or four months before she decided to come home with [their daughter]. He had already got a life out there, so he decided to stay. At first, he kept his relationship with Dawn and kept flying back to the UK to spend time with her and her daughter.
”He was going backwards and forwards between Portugal and here all the time, often only staying a couple of days before going back there. In the end, their relationship just fizzled out.”
Friends today described Mr Murat’s daughter, four, who is also blonde, as “his life”.
Mr Bailey, who last saw his friend two months ago, added: “He is a laidback guy who loves the wonderful weather and the relaxed lifestyle out there.


”But he was upset about being away from his daughter. She is his first child and she means a lot to him. When she was born, it was the best thing ever for him. I know he stays in contact with [her] and telephones her all the time from Portugal. She is his world and he loves her to bits.”
Mr Murat was born on November 20, 1973, at Queen Charlotte’s Hospital, Hammersmith, west London - the elder son of John Henry Queriol Murat, a company director, who is Portuguese, and Jennifer (nee Eveleigh), from Sidmouth, Devon.
Mr Murat’s parents were then living in Richmond-upon-Thames, but moved to Portugal, where he was educated.
As a young man, he returned to Britain, where he took a variety of jobs and enjoyed playing darts and clay pigeon shooting.
Mr Murat, who lost an eye in a motorbike accident as a teenager when he crashed into the wall of a railway station, worked for the turkey tycoon, Bernard Matthews, at the company factory in Lenwade, Norfolk, between 1994 and 2000.
He and his wife, who has a son, David, now 20, by a previous marriage, bought a modest, semi-detached, three-bedroom house, now worth £190,000, in The Street, Hockering - a quiet Norfolk village near Deerham (population 230).
Mr Murat went on to become a successful car salesman with Inchcape for four years before moving on to work at Desira car dealership in Norwich, selling Nissans, Alfa Romeos, Fiats and Citroens.
But he also earned £150 a time as a translator for Norfolk police, using his language skills to help their inquiries among the large Portuguese community in the county.
Mr Bailey remains certain of his friend’s innocence. He said: “I would trust him with my own daughter. It was a complete shock to hear what has happened in Portugal. If I was to give him a character reference, I would describe him as brilliant and a real people person.
”He is ever such a likeable guy and probably one of the most helpful people you could come across. He was very conscientious when I worked with him and spent masses of time with customers - almost to the point where he would become annoying. It’s just the way he is.


”He is one of those overly helpful people who likes to get involved. Sometimes at work, I had to tell him to go away in a friendly way.”
Mr Murat had a reputation, not only in the car trade but in Hockering, as something of a Good Samaritan.
His next door neighbour, Colin Shackcloth, 85, said: “He is a lovely man, but, two years ago, I realised he was gone. I went round with a little present at Christmas, a box of chocolates and Dawn said: ’Robert has gone back and he is stopping there.”
Mr Shackcloth, a retired display manager, added: “He always struck me as a down-to-earth kind of fellow. If you wanted anything, he would help. If you needed it, he would be round to replace a bulb for you. What he is supposed to have done just doesn’t fit.
”They were both very nice to us. We never had an angry word since they moved in about 11 years ago. I can’t say a bad word about him.”
Police stood guard at the house, from which Mrs Murat was driven away at speed by police late on Monday night carrying her daughter in a blanket.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 11:08:45 AM by ferryman »

Offline Carana

Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2013, 11:03:02 AM »
Could I suggest that admin contacts Mrd Glynn rather than several people pester her.  Assuming the Mrs Glynn whom Anne found in the public phone book is the same Mrs Glynn whom Mrs Fenn referred to, what questions would you want to ask her??   >@@(*&)

Personally, I don't think anyone, except the police should contact her. If the statements hadn't been made public, no one would even have heard of her.


AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2013, 11:09:16 AM »
I do agree. Moreover because nothing proves the PJ didn't contact her. On the contrary, considering the easiness to contact her, the PJ likely checked Mrs Fenn wasn't confusing Tuesday (when she said she was home) and Wednesday (when she said she was out).

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2013, 11:12:23 AM »
Could I suggest that admin contacts Mrd Glynn rather than several people pester her.  Assuming the Mrs Glynn whom Anne found in the public phone book is the same Mrs Glynn whom Mrs Fenn referred to, what questions would you want to ask her??   >@@(*&)

Personally, I don't think anyone, except the police should contact her. If the statements hadn't been made public, no one would even have heard of her.

Even as one who love to know the truth, and cheerfully hold my hand up and admit I'd got it wrong if I have, I'm with Carana with this.

I don't think we should be pestering people personally.

Offline Carana

Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2013, 11:17:43 AM »
Could I suggest that admin contacts Mrd Glynn rather than several people pester her.  Assuming the Mrs Glynn whom Anne found in the public phone book is the same Mrs Glynn whom Mrs Fenn referred to, what questions would you want to ask her??   >@@(*&)

Personally, I don't think anyone, except the police should contact her. If the statements hadn't been made public, no one would even have heard of her.

Even as one who love to know the truth, and cheerfully hold my hand up and admit I'd got it wrong if I have, I'm with Carana with this.

I don't think we should be pestering people personally.

Thank you, Ferryman.

Quite apart from the invasion of privacy on the part of a bunch of forum noseyparkers, the police would be far better equipped to help her through a cognitive interview of what must - by now - be a faint recollection.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2013, 11:23:39 AM »
This is the article by Matthew Parris.  (Actually, it's slightly abridged in that the original repeated just about every libel going about Murat.  But you'd have to be a journalist as skilled as Parris to get away with that sort of thing, as he did).

Our columnist on the disgraceful hounding of Robert

Do you have a mother? Have you ever shared a house with her? Might you have dealt with anyone a couple of years past his teens who (for all you know) could have boasted to someone else about seducing an underage girl? Might you be separated from a spouse and conduct another affair? Might you love your daughter? Might you have a cellar in your house? Might you assist local efforts to trace a missing child?

Well watch out, because if any toddler should go missing anywhere near you, and you were to be (not unreasonably) questioned by police, the British press could have had you hanged, drawn and quartered by Monday.

A life has been destroyed after the abduction of Madeleine McCann. Perhaps two, for we do not yet know Madeleine’s fate, and perhaps we never will. But for Robert Murat, the one-time suspect whom much of the British newspaper industry and parts of the Portuguese media casually decided to convict, a life lies in ruins. There is no redemption for Mr Murat now, not if the Angel Gabriel should appear on television to exonerate him. The name alone brings a shudder.

But nobody closely involved with this case believes any longer that Mr Murat is anything but an innocent man. For the rest of the world, however, glancing in passing at headlines and skimming news reports over its coffee, the name Murat is now synonymous with “creepy oddball and obvious suspect”.

His reputation will not now be rescued even by the arrest and conviction of anyone else. Imagine today giving your name at a hotel reception as Robert Murat — or Colin Stagg, or Sally Clark. Linkages between a crime and a name are set up in the public imagination and persist even after the story has changed direction. “Robert Murat — wasn’t he the one suspected of taking Maddie? Or cleared of it? Whatever. Mixed up in it anyway.”

For the record, Robert Murat is an Anglo-Portuguese man in his early thirties who has separated from his English wife, has a girlfriend estranged from her own husband, and is sharing a house with his mother, not far from where Madeleine McCann disappeared. After her disappearance he volunteered to help. He hired a car for a few days. His house has a cellar. He has a friendly business connection with a 22-year-old

Russian IT operative, Sergey Malinka, who was (it was reported) claimed by a workmate once to have boasted about underage sex. Mr Murat and Mr Malinka have spoken to each other on mobile phones. And Mr Murat has a four-year-old daughter who (somebody says) looks like Madeleine. Oh — and he’s blind in one eye.

Allegations have swirled around about computers on which pornographic websites have been accessed; but as a large proportion of computers worldwide would answer to that description and the claims have been neither confirmed nor elucidated, I shall not pursue these.

Now watch the British media at work. Exercising a courtesy not extended to Mr Murat, I shall name neither papers nor reporters. Let the headlines (in italics) and reports that follow provide a handy journalists’ guide to assassination-by-innuendo.

“ MADDIE SUSPECT BEHAVED JUST LIKE HUNTLEY: Kidnapping has weird echoes of Soham case. The prime suspect in the kidnap of Madeleine McCann interfered in the investigation as soon as the search for her began, it emerged yesterday. Briton Robert Murat, 33, even tried to comfort Madeleine’s distraught parents, Kate and Gerry, in the hours after she was snatched . . . One holidaymaker said: ‘There was a feeling that his behaviour was similar to that displayed by Huntley.’ Murat was said to have volunteered to act as a translator . . .”

“ Maddie: Russian ‘pervert’ quizzed by cops. A Russian computer ace linked to suspect Robert Murat was being quizzed last night . . . Sergey Malinka, 22 . . . who helped Murat, 33, set up a website – was picked up in a police swoop . . .

“ HUNT FOR MADDIE: POLICE IN NEW VILLA SWOOP COMPUTER RAID. . . Malinka, 22, said he . . . worked on a computer owned by the one-eyed Briton . . . Meanwhile it emerged there is an underfloor chamber at [Murat’s] home, 100 yards from where Maddie, four, was snatched as she slept in a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz a fortnight ago . . .”

“ Revealed: The cellar in suspect’s villa. . .‘There is a hole in the floor that we used as access when we were putting all the pipes in, so it’s big enough for a man to get down inside.’” “ His girl is the spitting image of Madeleine. Robert Murat has been pining for his four-year-old daughter Sofia, a ‘spitting image’ of missing Madeleine, friends revealed yesterday . . .”

“ Sex secret of Madeleine suspect: Briton ‘shared’ the wife of pool cleaner at villa. While friends and relatives portrayed suspect Robert Murat as a devoted family man, a darker picture emerged of an irritating oddball who loves to be the centre of attention. A one-eyed estate agent, former car salesman and turkey farm worker . . . it also emerged that Murat was caught up in a bizarre love triangle . . .”

“ One minute the Murats were happy with their new life in Portugal, the next their marriage was in tatters . . . his wife never said why it ended FAMILY FRIEND: Friends of Robert Murat’s ex-wife told last night how she suddenly walked out on him — but she would not say why.”

“ A PHONEY ALIBI? 11.40pm call on the night she went missing. Murat told police he was at home in bed” . . . Detectives are said to be concerned that though Murat and Malinka claim to be only business acquaintances they were captured on CCTV speaking animatedly . . . Murat also rented a hire car for three days after the abduction, possibly after he realised he was under police surveillance.”

“ The police haven’t told the family what is on Murat’s computer. They want to shield them. . .” . . . And so it went on for about a week: a week in which Mr Murat saw his good name torn apart. The damage done, a cautionary note then crept in . . .

“Despite the discoveries, nothing was found to connect Briton Murat to Madeleine . . .”

And, months later, nothing has been. There is speculation that the Portuguese police will formally exonerate Mr Murat soon. I don’t even know he is innocent. But I do know that, though “innocent until proved guilty” is a counsel of perfection, and though it is sometimes impossible to write useful reports without fingering guilty and innocent alike, there are still limits — cloudy though they must necessarily be. Reporting in this case has smashed right through them.

The whole disgusting business, the whole media-driven infatuation with this little girl and her parents, the whole sick, morbid, sentimental campaign of news generation and news manipulation, has been a disgrace to the British media.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2013, 12:49:24 PM »
the police would be far better equipped to help her through a cognitive interview of what must - by now - be a faint recollection.
What are you thinking of exactly, Carana, help her through memorizing the day or help her memorizing the fact ? In other words, do you suggest Mrs Fenn imagined the crying or made a confusion about the day ?

Offline Carana

Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2013, 01:34:56 PM »
the police would be far better equipped to help her through a cognitive interview of what must - by now - be a faint recollection.
What are you thinking of exactly, Carana, help her through memorizing the day or help her memorizing the fact ? In other words, do you suggest Mrs Fenn imagined the crying or made a confusion about the day ?

I doubt that Mrs Fenn imagined it.

- No one knows if she had the TV on (or whether neighbours also had their TVs on) when she was talking to her friend.

- Did she ring her friend specifically because of her concern about a child crying, or was this simply a comment in the midst of a general chat? E.g., "Sorry, I can't hear you, some kid is crying"?

- What kind of phone did she have? A landline attached by a physical cable or a portable landline one where she could have moved around her apartment?

- Was there any indication in that chat as to whether it was the same child crying, or whether there could have been several? Where exactly was she when she heard it? Did she describe it to her friend? Does the friend agree on the date and time?

- Did she have a hearing aid?  If so, how did that affect her ability to locate the source of sound?

- What were the acoustics like in this apartment? Could the sound have appeared to have come from a different place? Or several places?

- She didn't mention the gate opening... why not?

- She had been the victim of an attempted burglary the week before (which must have been scary), then a child disappears.

There are loads of questions which should have been verified and corroborated.

registrar

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2013, 01:41:42 PM »
Could I suggest that admin contacts Mrd Glynn rather than several people pester her.  Assuming the Mrs Glynn whom Anne found in the public phone book is the same Mrs Glynn whom Mrs Fenn referred to, what questions would you want to ask her??   >@@(*&)

Personally, I don't think anyone, except the police should contact her. If the statements hadn't been made public, no one would even have heard of her.

agreed, the notion that someone who turns up in the files and subsequently gets contacted out of the blue by some armchair sleuths (let's face it, that's what we are) - is ghoulish and wrong on just about every level.

If I was admin of this site - I'd take a very dim view of this


registrar

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 01:46:13 PM »
as for confusing the day

nothing much ever happens in Luz (except the once)

regardless of age, it is quite feasible that a person living there permanently might get one day mixed up with another day

unlike say holidaymakers - 'Damn it's Thursday already - Saturday we'll be flying back to grey, sodden Britain'

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 01:48:09 PM »
the police would be far better equipped to help her through a cognitive interview of what must - by now - be a faint recollection.
What are you thinking of exactly, Carana, help her through memorizing the day or help her memorizing the fact ? In other words, do you suggest Mrs Fenn imagined the crying or made a confusion about the day ?

I doubt that Mrs Fenn imagined it.

- No one knows if she had the TV on (or whether neighbours also had their TVs on) when she was talking to her friend.

- Did she ring her friend specifically because of her concern about a child crying, or was this simply a comment in the midst of a general chat? E.g., "Sorry, I can't hear you, some kid is crying"?

- What kind of phone did she have? A landline attached by a physical cable or a portable landline one where she could have moved around her apartment?

- Was there any indication in that chat as to whether it was the same child crying, or whether there could have been several? Where exactly was she when she heard it? Did she describe it to her friend? Does the friend agree on the date and time?

- Did she have a hearing aid?  If so, how did that affect her ability to locate the source of sound?

- What were the acoustics like in this apartment? Could the sound have appeared to have come from a different place? Or several places?

- She didn't mention the gate opening... why not?

- She had been the victim of an attempted burglary the week before (which must have been scary), then a child disappears.

There are loads of questions which should have been verified and corroborated.
So you question the crying, not the day. Isn't it ?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 01:50:12 PM »
On this crying from the apartment, here is what I base my scepticism on:

Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.


Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.


But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."


At the time Mrs Fenn lodged her complaint (about the crime of which she was a victim), the McCanns weren't in there. 

There is the semantic alternative of I knew a family was in there, but not that family.

But why would Mrs Fenn say that?

Certainly, by the time of her interview, Mrs Fenn was in absolutely no doubt that family was in there.

Why say anything to the press at all?


Offline Carana

Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2013, 01:57:08 PM »
On this crying from the apartment, here is what I base my scepticism on:

Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.


Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.


But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."


At the time Mrs Fenn lodged her complaint (about the crime of which she was a victim), the McCanns weren't in there. 

There is the semantic alternative of I knew a family was in there, but not that family.

But why would Mrs Fenn say that?

Certainly, by the time of her interview, Mrs Fenn was in absolutely no doubt that family was in there.

Why say anything to the press at all?

We'd have to find that audio clip again, FM.

From memory, the "rubbish" was about media allegations.

ETA: I think Martha already posted the clip here.

ETA 2: Weren't the headlines that she had heard Madeleine? That's not she said in her police statement and that is quite possibly what she was objecting to.

ETA 3: Does her police statement reflect reality anyway? This was late August...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 02:02:37 PM by Carana »

registrar

  • Guest
Re: Pamela Fenn, two questions:
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2013, 01:58:18 PM »
On this crying from the apartment, here is what I base my scepticism on:

Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.


Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.


But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."


At the time Mrs Fenn lodged her complaint (about the crime of which she was a victim), the McCanns weren't in there. 

There is the semantic alternative of I knew a family was in there, but not that family.

But why would Mrs Fenn say that?

Certainly, by the time of her interview, Mrs Fenn was in absolutely no doubt that family was in there.

Why say anything to the press at all?

Can make neither head nor tail of your post.

Kate herself admitted the children had been crying during the night:

The possible missed chance came at breakfast on the day Madeleine vanished, when the little girl disconcerted her mother by asking: ‘Why didn’t you come when Sean and I cried last night?’

So why would Mrs. Fenn imagine crying (although she might well have got the days muddled up)?