Author Topic: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie  (Read 98585 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #135 on: December 11, 2013, 02:29:36 AM »
IMO Eddie is alerting to one (or more) item of clothing in a pile on top of of the dining area cupboard.
BTW can no-one see the tshirt (with white plane visible and a blurred hint of  tower colour)?

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #136 on: December 11, 2013, 02:53:41 AM »
IMO Eddie is alerting to one (or more) item of clothing in a pile on top of of the dining area cupboard.
BTW can no-one see the tshirt (with white plane visible and a blurred hint of  tower colour)?

To be honest,  this exercise in analysing the minutiae of the cadaver dog's alerts baffles me

The indisputable fact remains ...   a dog trained to bark when he smells the scent of death,  barked repeatedly in relation to Madeleine McCann 

He did not  bark when exposed to anything  that did not not relate directly to the child who disappeared that night 

We must start there

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #137 on: December 11, 2013, 03:51:48 AM »
We can all agree that this particular dog  ( who was trained to bark when he detected the smell of death  ) was highly esteemed for his successful deployments    ...  can we not  ? 

So, given this dog's historical success,   WHY would his handler  ( equally successful and esteemed in his own right  )  have done anything to jeopardise their hard earned reputations as the best in their field  ? 

You see,  the dog's  (   and his handler's )   excellence did not hinge on  'alerting' ...  from a professional point of view  it did not matter whether he did or not 

All that mattered  was that the dog was  accurate 

What would motivate  Mr Grime into   'cueing'  his excellent and historically accurate dog into making an inaccurate alert   ?

...  what would  he have to gain   ?

I must admit I struggle to understand many of these dog issues, but I have often wondered about the very good point you make, namely that the dogs were not being expected to look for one thing or another.

Although the dogs' performance did not hinge on the necessity, as you say, of alerting, we are nonetheless left speculating about whether or not their responses were correct, because we have no Madeleine (alive or dead) or evidence as yet of another person having died on that spot to corroborate or disprove those responses' veracity.

Does this make sense?

I realise that there are other cases where no body has been found and the dogs have been proven to be correct - but we still need corroborating evidence of some kind before we can be sure, don't we?

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #138 on: December 11, 2013, 04:12:59 AM »
I must admit I struggle to understand many of these dog issues, but I have often wondered about the very good point you make, namely that the dogs were not being expected to look for one thing or another.

Although the dogs' performance did not hinge on the necessity, as you say, of alerting, we are nonetheless left speculating about whether or not their responses were correct, because we have no Madeleine (alive or dead) or evidence as yet of another person having died on that spot to corroborate or disprove those responses' veracity.

Does this make sense?

I realise that there are other cases where no body has been found and the dogs have been proven to be correct - but we still need corroborating evidence of some kind before we can be sure, don't we?

Without corroborating  (  forensic ) evidence,  the dog's alerts remain  'indicative'  of the scent of a dead body having been present,  rather than absolute proof of it

The point I am making  is that there is no reason to presume that  the dog's handler  'cued'  the dog into barking  (  inaccurately  )   

... there is simply no logical reason for him to have done so 

Mr Grime's professional reputation rested on his dogs  being accurate   ( whether they alerted or not )  ...     it simply makes no sense that he would think it necessary to  'cue'   Eddie into barking

Why  would he  ? 

Offline colombosstogey

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2013, 06:37:01 AM »
Without corroborating  (  forensic ) evidence,  the dog's alerts remain  'indicative'  of the scent of a dead body having been present,  rather than absolute proof of it

The point I am making  is that there is no reason to presume that  the dog's handler  'cued'  the dog into barking  (  inaccurately  )   

... there is simply no logical reason for him to have done so 

Mr Grime's professional reputation rested on his dogs  being accurate   ( whether they alerted or not )  ...     it simply makes no sense that he would think it necessary to  'cue'   Eddie into barking

Why  would he  ?

Grimes had no idea where the dogs would alert. They might never have. But the fact they alerted constantly with regard to the family for me should make someone sit up and have a WTF moment.....just because there is no body means nothing, quite often the dogs have alerted and later the perbs have confessed etc, or the body was found.

I dont know if the child is dead or not but something odd has gone on for the dogs to keep it up.

I actually expected them to alert at Murats house at first no i really did and was shocked actually that it was the McCanns apartment they alerted to.

Wasnt Murat still in the frame at the time so if Grimes wanted browny points why not get the dog to bark there too......
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:21:01 AM by Angelo222 »

Offline colombosstogey

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2013, 06:40:20 AM »
Next sequence from 01.40 has Eddie running around the apartment lounge sniffing before he comes across the toy bucket containing Cuddle Cat.




What the famous Cuddle Cat consigned to a bucket on the floor behind the settee.....oh dear. Now I wouldn't have expected to find it there as I thought it was the most treasured possession Mrs McCann had of her daughter and it was constantly on journeys with her. Poor CC obviously that day it wasnt needed....


« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:19:32 AM by Angelo222 »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2013, 07:52:33 AM »

Grimes had no idea where the dogs would alert. They might never have. But the fact they alerted constantly with regard to the family for me should make someone sit up and have a WTF moment.....just because there is no body means nothing, quite often the dogs have alerted and later the perbs have confessed etc, or the body was found.

I dont know if the child is dead or not but something odd has gone on for the dogs to keep it up.

I actually expected them to alert at Murats house at first no i really did and was shocked actually that it was the McCanns apartment they alerted to.

Wasnt Murat still in the frame at the time so if Grimes wanted browny points why not get the dog to bark there too......

 I don't knock the dogs or grimes its you who doesn't understand the potential meaning of the alerts. grime is careful to point out that the alerts could arise as a result of several different scenarios and that the dog MAY be alerting to cadverine. The one criticism I have of Grime is that he could have been clearer in his explanation. You can post till kingdom come...the dogs alerts do NOT prove that there was a body in the apartment...my source...Grime..you are merely deluding yourself
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:19:00 AM by Angelo222 »

Offline Angelo222

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2013, 08:26:37 AM »
Has anyone asked themself the question why did Grime target Cuddle Cat in the first place and hold it up like some trophy at the end of the exercise??

This was not an impartial test otherwise the toy would not have been hidden in a cupboard after the dog initially failed to alert to it.

This was a planned exercise and calls into question the validity of the entire episode.  Just like what happened in the underground garage, this was yet another example of a handler actively attempting to influence the outcome of what was supposed to be an open and genuine inspection.

Had this ever come to court the dog evidence would have been torn to shreds.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:34:19 AM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Benice

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2013, 08:27:55 AM »
I don't knock the dogs or grimes its you who doesn't understand the potential meaning of the alerts. grime is careful to point out that the alerts could arise as a result of several different scenarios and that the dog MAY be alerting to cadverine. The one criticism I have of Grime is that he could have been clearer in his explanation. You can post till kingdom come...the dogs alerts do NOT prove that there was a body in the apartment...my source...Grime..you are merely deluding yourself

I agree davel.     Anyone who claims a dead body must have been in 5A at some time is disputing what Grime has told us about why a scent may be present.           
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #144 on: December 11, 2013, 08:42:30 AM »
I agree davel.     Anyone who claims a dead body must have been in 5A at some time is disputing what Grime has told us about why a scent may be present.           

Now more pertinently, can you say with absolute certainty there was never a body  in the apartment ?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:54:16 AM by stephen25000 »

Offline Angelo222

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2013, 08:43:07 AM »
Grimes had no idea where the dogs would alert.

Really?  So why was he manipulating the scene??  Why go to such trouble to secure an alert to a cuddly toy when the dog didn't show the slightest interest in it (scent wise) in the first place??

Like it or not, Eddie had Cuddle Cat in his mouth, had there been the slightest hint of cadaverine on it he would have instantly alerted...he didn't!!

Whatever Eddie alerted to in that cupboard it most certainly wasn't Cuddle Cat unless, and this is an important point, could the dog have been merely searching out the very toy he had in his mouth minutes earlier??  Was Eddie effectively seeking out objects he was already familiar with??
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 09:07:24 AM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Benice

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #146 on: December 11, 2013, 09:00:01 AM »
Now more pertinently, can you say with absolute certainty there was never a body  in the apartment ?

No I can't and I have never made that claim.   

Now  - just as pertinently  - can you say with absolute certainty there must have been a body in the apartment?

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #147 on: December 11, 2013, 09:03:45 AM »
I don't knock the dogs or grimes its you who doesn't understand the potential meaning of the alerts. grime is careful to point out that the alerts could arise as a result of several different scenarios and that the dog MAY be alerting to cadverine. The one criticism I have of Grime is that he could have been clearer in his explanation. You can post till kingdom come...the dogs alerts do NOT prove that there was a body in the apartment...my source...Grime..you are merely deluding yourself

If youre going to quote him, best use his own words, ....he did not say what you suggest he did, yiu have it backward

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is 
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.
This does not however 
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a 
number of given scenarios
and in any event no evidential or intelligence 
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.



Offline Angelo222

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2013, 09:10:06 AM »
If youre going to quote him, best use his own words, ....he did not say what you suggest he did, yiu have it backward

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.
This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios
and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

Basically useless then...a total waste of the Portuguese taxpayers money.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #149 on: December 11, 2013, 09:12:38 AM »
Basically useless then...a total waste of the Portuguese taxpayers money.

Bit like searching for an abductor, total waste of tax payers money.
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