Author Topic: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie  (Read 104391 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #255 on: December 15, 2013, 12:24:48 AM »
Eddie stands on back legs and sniffs left end of top surface of cupboard.   
He gets down and does not alert.
He stands on back legs again and this time sniffs halfway along the top surface of cupboard.
He sniffs directly at a pile, then he raises his nose slightly higher to sniff the pile again (to confirm?).
He gets down and immediatly barks.
What do all of you think is in this pile pointed to by Eddie's right paw?
http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg

If Levy got his name out of the way, it might be easier to see.

Offline pegasus

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #256 on: December 15, 2013, 12:37:30 AM »
If Levy got his name out of the way, it might be easier to see.
Agreed his name blocks the pile sometimes, but he did a good service by releasing these videos, and elsewere in same video are unobscured shots.
BTW psychologically the one sheet of paper on top conditions the mind to assume the whole pile is paperwork.
Tricked me at first.
But its only the top item is paper, probably police paperwork, the rest is clothing.
Meticulous attention to detail will solve this case as neatly as a pile of freshly ironed and folded laundry.
My great grandfather probably would have gone further and said "My Dear Watson, its clear that the person who did the ironing played pat-a-cake as a child" (as each folded item is stacked at right angles to the item beneath)  8(0(*.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #257 on: December 15, 2013, 01:30:25 AM »
The still is pretty crap. Watch the footage, there's no clothes on top of the cabinet/sideboard. That red book/diary is clear as the blue sky. It's not that red plane top. The scent of CC was coming though the top of the open doors. Why do people overcomplicate things that are simple. Crimes of the moment are committed with simplicity not with pre-planning of how to fool the whole world.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:35:32 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Serendipity

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #258 on: December 16, 2013, 11:47:54 AM »
Mr Grime must have had a reason to do the second test with it hidden....in the cupboard....fact remains its in his report....that the dog reacted to it...he was the handler, he will know what his dog does and doesnt do cant or cant do.... If  want to think he made it all up, well, thats their view.....

You are absolutely right RedBlossom.  Martin Grime did have a good reason for doing the second test with cuddle cat hidden in the cupboard ....

I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."

What he told me is further supported here:

http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/01/20/30870/indiana-bones-cadaver-dog-severed-limbs-hollywood/

"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."

Full article:

About 6 on a cold clear morning one bright-eyed German shepherd and about a dozen other members of the Los Angeles County coroner's skeletal recovery team gather for a Wednesday briefing.

The previous afternoon, a dog walker had discovered two of her charges playing with a human head in a plastic bag near a trail below the Hollywood sign in Bronson Canyon Park.

Police had performed a preliminary search of the rugged Hollywood Hills terrain, but they weren't sure whether more body parts might be found; coyotes could have scattered the remains over miles of parkland.

Indiana Bones to the rescue.

An 8-year-old German shepherd, Indy is one of the nation’s few cadaver dogs retained full-time by county law enforcement. On the staff for six-and-a-half years, she has been on hundreds of searches for human remains. And has honed her skills on the job.

“She’s saved us here,” says handler and coroner Investigator Renee Grand Pre. “Lots of times you get that call from police that someone is missing. ...Where do you start?”

On this particular morning, Grand Pre takes out a tightly knit brown stick-like toy and the revved up, 75-pound Indy lunges out of the truck. “Site,” Grand Pre commands, speaking to Indy in her native Dutch. Indy pushes her hind legs down, gazing up toward the toy in rapture.

“Sook,” Grand Pre orders, pretending to throw the toy forward, stuffing it in her back pocket, as Indy gets to work, busily sniffing the ground, ears up and back against her head.

After a few brief forays into steep vegetation and some animal trails, Indy tries to lie on a slope and stares at a hole in the ground. After only 20 minutes, she has found the hole within which investigators will later discover two feet and a hand.

The team, which consists of a criminologist, anthropologist and several coroner’s investigators, comb the area and discover a severed hand about 100 yards away.

Investigators believe the body parts were all placed in the hole that Indy found, and were scattered by animals.

Cadaver dogs are not easy to obtain. But if anyone could get one for the department, it is Grand Pre.

At 51, Grand Pre is a compact, fit woman with dirty blond hair and slightly clinical demeanor. She has been with the coroner’s office for 11 years and in addition to being a trained nurse and investigator, she is also the acting department emergency coordinator and the weapons of mass destruction team leader. She balances these responsibilities with duties to the National Guard and working with Indy.

In 2004, Grand Pre stumbled upon a line item for a canine in the department’s homeland security grant budget. Until then only volunteers had worked with them, and then only on non-crime-scene investigations. She wrote a letter to the state outlining why a large-scale disaster response required a cadaver dog on staff that could identify and locate human bodies.

About $10,000 in federal money was set aside for Indy’s purchase and training; the coroner's office provides about $1,000 annually for food, toys and vet visits.

"In my mind, that [also] makes her a federal resource," Grand Pre said. And these days, Indy can get busy. She is often called upon by agencies such as the L.A. County Sheriff’s Department or LAPD homicide investigators to help hunt for a possible body. "You’re not going to dig up the person’s whole backyard. The dog is one more tool."

Most detector dogs are bred in Europe, where there is a greater market for German shepherds, and then sent over to the United States. Indy is an import from Holland. In the summer of 2005, Grand Pre flew to Peru, Ind., just outside Indianapolis, to pick up Indy from a kennel where dogs are primarily trained to detect bombs.

Working dogs have certain natural characteristics, such as a strong drive to hunt and play, which is nurtured, and focused on certain tasks. At 1-and-a-half years old, they are "imprinted," or introduced to and trained to recognize the odor that they will spend a good part of their lives seeking.

"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."

Taphonomy, or the study of how a human body decomposes, is not easily mastered. For example, a hand can feature a different level of decomposition and discoloration on each finger. A decomposing human body gives off a distinctly tangy, sweet but putrid rotting stench that is nearly as difficult to describe as it is to forget.

For Indy, the ability to tell the difference between animal bones and human bones is somewhat equivalent to a person’s ability to walk into the kitchen and know whether chicken or turkey is cooking.

To train them, the kennel used a box with a hole through which a tennis ball pops out after the dog "alerts" to the odor emanating from within.

When Indy recognizes the odor of a decomposing human body, she sits or lies down, staring at the spot. It is the same passive alert most bomb dogs have because handlers do not want them disturbing the scene. In Indy’s case, a wagging tail or digging alert could wreak havoc on a crime scene and damage bones.

The Indy of today is starkly different from the one that came home with Grand Pre from the kennel six years ago. That Indy was more "machine-like" than "dog-like," Grand Pre says. And though Indy still leads a regimented life — "eats once in the morning and once at night, poops once in the morning and once at night" — she no longer pees on command.

The discipline comes in handy, for example, when the pair had to search trash cans for possible body parts Wednesday. A lot of the waste included leftover food that would distract most dogs. Indy keeps her focus.

Indy was originally named Toby after her “T Litter.” And though you’re not supposed to change their names, Grand Pre did a small shift — calling her Indy, since she picked her up in Indiana. After a phone conversation with a friend, she decided her full name should aptly be Indiana Bones. And that’s the name on her dog tag.

The roughly dozen old Army barracks on a cul-de-sac at Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base are a perfect training location for Katrina-esque levels of calamity: unkempt, rickety apartments abandoned and ignored, with peeling blue paint, broken glass and scattered animal feces and dirt. Weeds sprout everywhere. This is one spot where Indy works out.

In the back of Grand Pre’s truck is a black case that holds four specimen jars, each filled with a different "training aid" that she switches to accustom Indy to identifying the smell of human decomposition. These include dried blood, a small bit of brain tissue and congealed human body fat.

The coroner’s law allows for the use of human body parts for training and educational purposes. But even so, the office is very careful about using bones, which can be linked to individuals if they are lost.

Indy and Grand Pre train four to eight hours a week. A session starts with obedience. “Site,” Grand Pre says, turning and walking away from Indy, glancing back every few step to make sure she doesn’t move. When Indy’s about 20 feet away, Grand Pre tells her to “komen.” Indy runs forward. Grand Pre stops her — “site” — and Indy responds with precision.

Indy’s Dutch vocabulary is minimal, but key. A handful of words have been used to train her since she was a pup: “Sook” means “seek” or “search,” “bliven” means “stay,” “auf” means “off” or “lie down,” “louss” means “loose,” “komen” means “come,” and “site” means “sit.”

Training includes hidden problem sets placed around and within different apartments that all look alike. “Luckily, if I forget where they are, she can find them,” Grand Pre says. She’s had make the problems more creative as Indy has gained experience over the years.

Indy is now a pro, with more than six years of experience and a resume that includes a variety of investigation scenarios: homicide, missing persons, suicide followups, wilderness and backyard searches, among others.

“If somebody is missing...when you find them, you find their remains and it brings closure to the family, it gives them a final wrap-up,” Grand Pre says. “For police investigations, it can be critical to the case.”

But Indy, at 8-years-old, is also getting older, and does not yet have a successor. On average, a working dog's life span is eight to 10 years, Grand Pre says, but Indy isn't involved in some of the rougher patrol jobs those figures take into account.

The department has been trying to find another dog, but a price tag of up to $8,000 is difficult to fulfill during tough times. With a lead time of roughly a year to gain real on-the-job experience, Grand Pre says, the department really needs to get that second dog.

The program has "been successful, and if it's going to continue to be successful, we need to have the resources available to continue to grow," Grand Pre says. "I'll use Indy as long as she's healthy and able to go out. It's hard to say [how long], but she's very, very healthy


ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #259 on: December 16, 2013, 11:53:20 AM »
You are absolutely right RedBlossom.  Martin Grime did have a good reason for doing the second test with cuddle cat hidden in the cupboard ....

I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."

What he told me is further supported here:

http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/01/20/30870/indiana-bones-cadaver-dog-severed-limbs-hollywood/

"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."

Full article:

About 6 on a cold clear morning one bright-eyed German shepherd and about a dozen other members of the Los Angeles County coroner's skeletal recovery team gather for a Wednesday briefing.

The previous afternoon, a dog walker had discovered two of her charges playing with a human head in a plastic bag near a trail below the Hollywood sign in Bronson Canyon Park.

Police had performed a preliminary search of the rugged Hollywood Hills terrain, but they weren't sure whether more body parts might be found; coyotes could have scattered the remains over miles of parkland.

Indiana Bones to the rescue.

An 8-year-old German shepherd, Indy is one of the nation’s few cadaver dogs retained full-time by county law enforcement. On the staff for six-and-a-half years, she has been on hundreds of searches for human remains. And has honed her skills on the job.

“She’s saved us here,” says handler and coroner Investigator Renee Grand Pre. “Lots of times you get that call from police that someone is missing. ...Where do you start?”

On this particular morning, Grand Pre takes out a tightly knit brown stick-like toy and the revved up, 75-pound Indy lunges out of the truck. “Site,” Grand Pre commands, speaking to Indy in her native Dutch. Indy pushes her hind legs down, gazing up toward the toy in rapture.

“Sook,” Grand Pre orders, pretending to throw the toy forward, stuffing it in her back pocket, as Indy gets to work, busily sniffing the ground, ears up and back against her head.

After a few brief forays into steep vegetation and some animal trails, Indy tries to lie on a slope and stares at a hole in the ground. After only 20 minutes, she has found the hole within which investigators will later discover two feet and a hand.

The team, which consists of a criminologist, anthropologist and several coroner’s investigators, comb the area and discover a severed hand about 100 yards away.

Investigators believe the body parts were all placed in the hole that Indy found, and were scattered by animals.

Cadaver dogs are not easy to obtain. But if anyone could get one for the department, it is Grand Pre.

At 51, Grand Pre is a compact, fit woman with dirty blond hair and slightly clinical demeanor. She has been with the coroner’s office for 11 years and in addition to being a trained nurse and investigator, she is also the acting department emergency coordinator and the weapons of mass destruction team leader. She balances these responsibilities with duties to the National Guard and working with Indy.

In 2004, Grand Pre stumbled upon a line item for a canine in the department’s homeland security grant budget. Until then only volunteers had worked with them, and then only on non-crime-scene investigations. She wrote a letter to the state outlining why a large-scale disaster response required a cadaver dog on staff that could identify and locate human bodies.

About $10,000 in federal money was set aside for Indy’s purchase and training; the coroner's office provides about $1,000 annually for food, toys and vet visits.

"In my mind, that [also] makes her a federal resource," Grand Pre said. And these days, Indy can get busy. She is often called upon by agencies such as the L.A. County Sheriff’s Department or LAPD homicide investigators to help hunt for a possible body. "You’re not going to dig up the person’s whole backyard. The dog is one more tool."

Most detector dogs are bred in Europe, where there is a greater market for German shepherds, and then sent over to the United States. Indy is an import from Holland. In the summer of 2005, Grand Pre flew to Peru, Ind., just outside Indianapolis, to pick up Indy from a kennel where dogs are primarily trained to detect bombs.

Working dogs have certain natural characteristics, such as a strong drive to hunt and play, which is nurtured, and focused on certain tasks. At 1-and-a-half years old, they are "imprinted," or introduced to and trained to recognize the odor that they will spend a good part of their lives seeking.

"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."

Taphonomy, or the study of how a human body decomposes, is not easily mastered. For example, a hand can feature a different level of decomposition and discoloration on each finger. A decomposing human body gives off a distinctly tangy, sweet but putrid rotting stench that is nearly as difficult to describe as it is to forget.

For Indy, the ability to tell the difference between animal bones and human bones is somewhat equivalent to a person’s ability to walk into the kitchen and know whether chicken or turkey is cooking.

To train them, the kennel used a box with a hole through which a tennis ball pops out after the dog "alerts" to the odor emanating from within.

When Indy recognizes the odor of a decomposing human body, she sits or lies down, staring at the spot. It is the same passive alert most bomb dogs have because handlers do not want them disturbing the scene. In Indy’s case, a wagging tail or digging alert could wreak havoc on a crime scene and damage bones.

The Indy of today is starkly different from the one that came home with Grand Pre from the kennel six years ago. That Indy was more "machine-like" than "dog-like," Grand Pre says. And though Indy still leads a regimented life — "eats once in the morning and once at night, poops once in the morning and once at night" — she no longer pees on command.

The discipline comes in handy, for example, when the pair had to search trash cans for possible body parts Wednesday. A lot of the waste included leftover food that would distract most dogs. Indy keeps her focus.

Indy was originally named Toby after her “T Litter.” And though you’re not supposed to change their names, Grand Pre did a small shift — calling her Indy, since she picked her up in Indiana. After a phone conversation with a friend, she decided her full name should aptly be Indiana Bones. And that’s the name on her dog tag.

The roughly dozen old Army barracks on a cul-de-sac at Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base are a perfect training location for Katrina-esque levels of calamity: unkempt, rickety apartments abandoned and ignored, with peeling blue paint, broken glass and scattered animal feces and dirt. Weeds sprout everywhere. This is one spot where Indy works out.

In the back of Grand Pre’s truck is a black case that holds four specimen jars, each filled with a different "training aid" that she switches to accustom Indy to identifying the smell of human decomposition. These include dried blood, a small bit of brain tissue and congealed human body fat.

The coroner’s law allows for the use of human body parts for training and educational purposes. But even so, the office is very careful about using bones, which can be linked to individuals if they are lost.

Indy and Grand Pre train four to eight hours a week. A session starts with obedience. “Site,” Grand Pre says, turning and walking away from Indy, glancing back every few step to make sure she doesn’t move. When Indy’s about 20 feet away, Grand Pre tells her to “komen.” Indy runs forward. Grand Pre stops her — “site” — and Indy responds with precision.

Indy’s Dutch vocabulary is minimal, but key. A handful of words have been used to train her since she was a pup: “Sook” means “seek” or “search,” “bliven” means “stay,” “auf” means “off” or “lie down,” “louss” means “loose,” “komen” means “come,” and “site” means “sit.”

Training includes hidden problem sets placed around and within different apartments that all look alike. “Luckily, if I forget where they are, she can find them,” Grand Pre says. She’s had make the problems more creative as Indy has gained experience over the years.

Indy is now a pro, with more than six years of experience and a resume that includes a variety of investigation scenarios: homicide, missing persons, suicide followups, wilderness and backyard searches, among others.

“If somebody is missing...when you find them, you find their remains and it brings closure to the family, it gives them a final wrap-up,” Grand Pre says. “For police investigations, it can be critical to the case.”

But Indy, at 8-years-old, is also getting older, and does not yet have a successor. On average, a working dog's life span is eight to 10 years, Grand Pre says, but Indy isn't involved in some of the rougher patrol jobs those figures take into account.

The department has been trying to find another dog, but a price tag of up to $8,000 is difficult to fulfill during tough times. With a lead time of roughly a year to gain real on-the-job experience, Grand Pre says, the department really needs to get that second dog.

The program has "been successful, and if it's going to continue to be successful, we need to have the resources available to continue to grow," Grand Pre says. "I'll use Indy as long as she's healthy and able to go out. It's hard to say [how long], but she's very, very healthy

I would think the most likely explanation of why he hid the toy in the cupboard is that he was thoroughly embarrassed that the dog had physically played with the toy (particularly without reacting to it) and wanted to be sure that there would be no repeat.

I imagine Grime must have wanted the ground to swallow him up when Eddie started barking all round the cupboard.

Offline Serendipity

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #260 on: December 16, 2013, 11:58:48 AM »
I would think the most likely explanation of why he hid the toy in the cupboard is that he was thoroughly embarrassed that the dog had physically played with the toy (particularly without reacting to it) and wanted to be sure that there would be no repeat.

I imagine Grime must have wanted the ground to swallow him up when Eddie started barking all round the cupboard.

Absolute tosh lol You just can't face the fact that Eddie alerted. You have been given an explanation from the horses mouth which makes perfect sense to anyone with an ounce of intelligence, so please stop clutching at straws. :) Catch you later maybe, I'm away to have some lunch :)

Offline pegasus

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #261 on: December 16, 2013, 01:08:28 PM »
After the villa search, was the toy tested by Eddie at the gym?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #262 on: December 16, 2013, 01:10:10 PM »
After the villa search, was the toy tested by Eddie at the gym?

That's not recorded.

Offline pegasus

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #263 on: December 16, 2013, 04:41:03 PM »
Here is the toy alert as described in "A Verdade Da Mentira", please refer to pages 171-172 for the complete text.
"....... a canideo dirigiu-se à sala, onde em cima de um cadeirão de verga se encontrava o pequeno peluche cor-de-rosa  ....... com um determinante e afirmativo latido, indicou que aquele peluche ......."

And a provisional translation
"....... the dog went to the lounge where upon a bentwood chair was the little pink soft toy ....... with a decisive and assertive bark, indicated that soft toy ......."

Does anyone know if this is a first-hand account?

P.S. "cima" means "on" or "upon" the chair. Is it possible there a bit of video missing in which the toy is on a chair?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:25:11 PM by pegasus »

Offline Carana

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #264 on: December 16, 2013, 05:08:48 PM »
You are absolutely right RedBlossom.  Martin Grime did have a good reason for doing the second test with cuddle cat hidden in the cupboard ....

I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."

What he told me is further supported here:

http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/01/20/30870/indiana-bones-cadaver-dog-severed-limbs-hollywood/

(Content snipped.)

Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''

The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Hmmm.

So, he wasn't taught any "tricks", but just reverted to puppy mode?



Offline Mr Gray

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #265 on: December 16, 2013, 05:12:08 PM »
(Content snipped.)

Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''

The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

so grime failed to confirm the alert

Hmmm.

So, he wasn't taught any "tricks", but just reverted to puppy mode?
so grime failed to confirm the alert

Offline Benice

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #266 on: December 16, 2013, 05:40:02 PM »
(Content snipped.)

Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''

The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Hmmm.

So, he wasn't taught any "tricks", but just reverted to puppy mode?

He certainly wasn't doing what he'd been trained to do.   Neither was he when he got very excited about what under a bed and kept going back to sniff round the base of it.   It turned out to be foodstuff under the bed.
Similarly with Keela(?)  who excitedly kept returning to a corner next to a chest of drawers (or similar).  That turned out to be a ball behind that furniture.

It would seem that the dogs don't just get excited by the scents they are trained to detect - 'excitement' which IIRC has been put forward in the past as proof that the scents they are trained to find are present.

The dogs are brilliant - but it is not the exact science that some people want it to be.
imo.





The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #267 on: December 16, 2013, 07:04:09 PM »
He certainly wasn't doing what he'd been trained to do.   Neither was he when he got very excited about what under a bed and kept going back to sniff round the base of it.   It turned out to be foodstuff under the bed.
Similarly with Keela(?)  who excitedly kept returning to a corner next to a chest of drawers (or similar).  That turned out to be a ball behind that furniture.

It would seem that the dogs don't just get excited by the scents they are trained to detect - 'excitement' which IIRC has been put forward in the past as proof that the scents they are trained to find are present.

The dogs are brilliant - but it is not the exact science that some people want it to be.
imo.

Any links for that? Dogs getting interested in an area rightly or wrongly is not the same as showing a definite change of behaviour nited by the handler due to scenting what theyre trained for......

Offline pegasus

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #268 on: December 16, 2013, 07:54:51 PM »
So during Eddie's search of villa, where in the living area were the red tshirt, the white sleeveless top, and the grey/white trousers, and why did Eddie not find them?

Offline Benice

Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
« Reply #269 on: December 17, 2013, 01:04:14 AM »
Any links for that? Dogs getting interested in an area rightly or wrongly is not the same as showing a definite change of behaviour nited by the handler due to scenting what theyre trained for......

It's in one of the videos.    At the end of the video Grime explains that food was found under a bed and a ball was found behind a piece of furniture saying that was why the dogs were so interested in those areas.

My point was that even when they are 'on duty' and in 'work mode', the dogs can still be distracted and behave like any other dogs would at certain times.  Therefore a change in behaviour, such as the dogs getting excited, is not necessarily a sign that the scent they are trained to find is present.





The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal