Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.

[misty]

Do you seriously think the UK police & Social Services would have "got involved" if a Portuguese family on holiday here had suffered the loss of their child in similar circumstances?

[Benice]

The PT were persuaded that it was a normal British practice and some here seem to be continuing to promote that view. The rest of the UK don't really want to tarred with that brush.

Of course it's normal practice for people on holiday both here and abroad otherwise the Listening Service would never have been offered to clients in the first place - let alone be on offer for decades.      There can be only one reason why it is offered IMO and that is because it is popular with parents - so it will increase bookings.

If you don't agree with the practice  - then that's your prerogative.   However, common sense dictates that none of parents who have signed up for this service would agree with you.   Neither would those parents who use baby alarms.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Have you got an example where the parents were charged when a child drowned in the sea?  I can't think of any around here except when the excursion was a school trip or a adventure tourism situation.

No, I cannot because there was no global search for any child who drowned at sea, no fund set up, no pope or Royalty visits, world wide publicity PR campaigne telling people it was the seas fault, and the country in which the sea was accessed from, populations responsibility to stop the sea from  coming in stealing the child. Absolutly nothing was done to prevent the tide from coming in!

[stephen25000]

read the archiving despatch and you might understand why they were not prosecuted

They recklessly endangered their children, all to pursue the social interests.

Enough said.

[John]

Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established.  The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort. 

If anyone was to blame it was the resort management who were well aware that accmodation had been targeted already.  Guests should have been warned not to leave doors unsecured at any time and to lock all windows firmly when out.

[stephen25000]

Of course it's normal practice for people on holiday both here and abroad otherwise the Listening Service would never have been offered to clients in the first place - let alone be on offer for decades.      There can be only one reason why it is offered IMO and that is because it is popular with parents - so it will increase bookings.

If you don't agree with the practice  - then that's your prerogative.   However, common sense dictates that none of parents who have signed up for this service would agree with you.   Neither would those parents who use baby alarms.

So it's normal practiced to leave children unattended, and with infrequent and short checks, whilst they go out boozing and eating, whilst leaving the accomodation unlocked.

NO IT ISN'T.

[jassi]

Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established.  The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort. 

If anyone was to blame it was the resort management who were well aware that accmodation had been targeted already.  Guests should have been warned not to leave doors unsecured at any time and to lock all windows firmly when out.

Is that not just common sense?

If it was such a safe place why were they checking at all?
How was a 'listening' check going to determine that the children were alive & well,and  all present and correct?

[Miss Taken Identity]

Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established.  The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.

However, that doesn't seem to tie in with their premeditated ,multilateral descision to 'do a listening' job on their children before they even left England! Now does it?  David Payne and wife brought baby listening device,  why?

They all planned to leave their children alone in the evenings. claimed it is what people in the UK do regularily, forgetting to mention that if a child went missing they would be hauled up in court!

Premeditated... planned... I am not buying  in to that golly gosh you know what we just didn't think...it was an accident.

[Benice]

Th crucial element is 'reckless' and that could not be established.  The McCanns admitted that they fell victim to a false sense of security given the peaceful ambiance of the resort.

IIRC John, that is why Mark Warner have now stopped offering the Listening Service - i.e. they recognised that it could give people a false sense of security.   I totally agree as people will be influenced (even sub-consciously) when a service is offered to the public by a reputable company.   It would not occur to them that such companies would promote services year in year out - that could possibly endanger their children.   

 I would like all tour operators and hoteliers etc to take the same stance as MW and withdraw the service.

[Miss Taken Identity]

IIRC John, that is why Mark Warner have now stopped offering the Listening Service - i.e. they recognised that it could give people a false sense of security.   I totally agree as people will be influenced (even sub-consciously) when a service is offered to the public by a reputable company.   It would not occur to them that such companies would promote services year in year out - that could possibly endanger their children.   

 I would like all tour operators and hoteliers etc to take the same stance as MW and withdraw the service.

Just because people want a service it doesn't mean it is safe. It is the parents rsponsibility to do risk assessment, the very fact that the apartment has access to an open road and a door was left unlocked. Seriously? Next you will be telling us they are 'intellegent' doctors...

[Benice]

So it's normal practiced to leave children unattended, and with infrequent and short checks, whilst they go out boozing and eating, whilst leaving the accomodation unlocked.

NO IT ISN'T.

The Listening Service has been used by parents for decades.  Whether those parents go to a bar or to have their dinner or go for a walk or to a concert or whatever they do - they have all made exactly the same choice as the McCanns and that is to leave their children asleep and alone in their accommodation for periods of time.  Try to get over it.

Anyone who thinks no other holiday-maker has ever gone out and left windows/door unlocked - either by accident or design is not living in the real world IMO.

[Brietta]

Not forgetting that the window was open and the shutter raised ... and a little girl was missing without trace.

If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' she left no fingerprints on the glass of the patio door, cuddle cat was left lying on the bed and she left her shoes behind her.

All she had to do was to walk from the garden gate to the small well lit reception area and safety ... there is no evidence she did that.

Mr and Mrs Moyes were on their balcony from after nine until they retired.  Had there been any disturbance associated with an accident they would have noticed.
Unfortunately neither they who were on their balcony and others with balconies overlooking the area who may well have been on them appear to have been asked relevant questions ... it is questionable how many if any were asked anything at all.

[stephen25000]

Not forgetting that the window was open and the shutter raised ... and a little girl was missing without trace.

If Madeleine 'woke and wandered' she left no fingerprints on the glass of the patio door, cuddle cat was left lying on the bed and she left her shoes behind her.

All she had to do was to walk from the garden gate to the small well lit reception area and safety ... there is no evidence she did that.

Mr and Mrs Moyes were on their balcony from after nine until they retired.  Had there been any disturbance associated with an accident they would have noticed.
Unfortunately neither they who were on their balcony and others with balconies overlooking the area who may well have been on them appear to have been asked relevant questions ... it is questionable how many if any were asked anything at all.

No, we don't know the window was open and the shutters raised.

Not corroborated by anyone before Kate Mccann  went to the apartment.

[Miss Taken Identity]

The Listening Service has been used by parents for decades.  Whether those parents go to a bar or to have their dinner or go for a walk or to a concert or whatever they do - they have all made exactly the same choice as the McCanns and that is to leave their children asleep and alone in their accommodation for periods of time.  Try to get over it.

Anyone who thinks no other holiday-maker has ever gone out and left windows/door unlocked - either by accident or design is not living in the real world IMO.

Well welcome to this real world, the one in which doctors are constanly writing up notes about children who have all sorts of accidents- attend social work and police meetings regarding child abuse cases- who are TRAINED in risk assessment and child protecion policy. NO where in that policy or at any meetings do they say Baby listening  is safe-go out have  a drink and pop back to listen- hear if babies are crying.

Let me reassure you what they did was selfish as are ALL parents who treat their children like pests who interfere in their adult persuits.

Blaming everyone else  when something goes wrong is quite another matter!

[stephen25000]

The Listening Service has been used by parents for decades.  Whether those parents go to a bar or to have their dinner or go for a walk or to a concert or whatever they do - they have all made exactly the same choice as the McCanns and that is to leave their children asleep and alone in their accommodation for periods of time.  Try to get over it.

Anyone who thinks no other holiday-maker has ever gone out and left windows/door unlocked - either by accident or design is not living in the real world IMO.

Really, and how many leave their children in unlocked accomodation.

Your excuses wore thin a long time ago Benice.

There are no excuses for what they did.