The dreaded cadaver scent

[Redblossom]

John Barrett, a former Scotland Yard dog handler, also indicated that the trained dogs used in an attempt to detect a "death smell" on Mrs McCann's Bible and clothes were brought in too long after Madeleine vanished.
The crucial scent lasts for no longer than a month, he said.



Quoted in many newspaper articles

Kate Mccann says something similar in her book, if anyone has the quote, please do post, I have it on kindle but cannot copy and paste from it, its something about the scent of death believed to be constituted by putrescine and one other chemical, only this is just not true



Who is this  John Barrett? Was  he a cadaver dog handler? If what he alledgedly said is true, why would the police bother three months later? Wasting time money and energy?
 >@@(*&)

[icabodcrane]

Yes, John Barrett's expertise was certainly quoted extensively in the press wasn't it ?

Strange really,   given that he retired from dog handling in the East End of London over 30 years ago

... not exactly an  expert on modern day forensics then  ?   

[AnneGuedes]

Here is what you were looking for, Redblossom :
When researching the validity of sniffer-dog evidence later that month, Gerry would discover that false alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler......
They had no proof that Madeleine was dead. All they actually had was the signal of a dog trying to please its instructor in an apartment from which Madeleine had been taken three months earlier. As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days. There were no decaying body parts for the dog to find. It was simply wrong.
Mr and Mrs McCann didn't read much about dogs, it seems... and obviously didn't know (do they now ?) what an EVRD is.

[Redblossom]

Here is what you were looking for, Redblossom :
When researching the validity of sniffer-dog evidence later that month, Gerry would discover that false alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler......
They had no proof that Madeleine was dead. All they actually had was the signal of a dog trying to please its instructor in an apartment from which Madeleine had been taken three months earlier. As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days. There were no decaying body parts for the dog to find. It was simply wrong.
Mr and Mrs McCann didn't read much about dogs, it seems... and obviously didn't know (do they now ?) what an EVRD is.

Thank you Anne!

[south of the river]

If Madeleine had died in an accident that evening then the amount of time for a cadaver scent to develop would have been very tight - experts say any where from 3 hours + for the body to start to release a scent that cant be classified as cadaver

But again it doesn't really matter as the PJ did not find any forensics that would help them. Nothing - this is what came out so loud in the files I have  read - they were so sure that the dogs would find the smoking gun.

Again the alerting in the hire car to me signifies a big red flag to the accuracy to the dogs giving 100% positive alerts, I can accept that in a panic  the parents might have hidden the body - though where always leaves me - but to then transfer a dead body a month plus later ? Bearing in mind that the " hiding " place must have been fairly close by going by the timelines and witness statements.
I know that this is going over old ground but it still remains the crux of the argument, If you give the the motive as a given - then I have never yet seen a logical method and means

[Mrs. B]

How is anyone supposed to have been familiar with the term EVRD? Grime developed the training technique himself, it was HIS own classification.

Martin Grime: I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. ....


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Also can mentioned here:

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog'.
Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.

ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'
Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html

ETA So, we have only Mr. Grime to rely on with regard to the accuracy of the dogs, no independent authority. And Mr. Grime, as an independent consultant, effectively says: My dogs are excellent,  because I say so.....

[Carana]

John Barrett, a former Scotland Yard dog handler, also indicated that the trained dogs used in an attempt to detect a "death smell" on Mrs McCann's Bible and clothes were brought in too long after Madeleine vanished.
The crucial scent lasts for no longer than a month, he said.



Quoted in many newspaper articles

Kate Mccann says something similar in her book, if anyone has the quote, please do post, I have it on kindle but cannot copy and paste from it, its something about the scent of death believed to be constituted by putrescine and one other chemical, only this is just not true



Who is this  John Barrett? Was  he a cadaver dog handler? If what he alledgedly said is true, why would the police bother three months later? Wasting time money and energy?
 >@@(*&)

On the Bible (sic) and clothes, i.e. cross-contamination.

I don't think bringing to the dogs over was a total waste as they might have found human remains.

[ferryman]

...and obviously didn't know (do they now ?) what an EVRD is.

Was.

To be clear, the category "E"VRD was created with Eddie and ceased to exist when Eddie hung up his paws.

No other dog in the history of sniffer dogs ever owned the title.

[Mrs. B]

...and obviously didn't know (do they now ?) what an EVRD is.

Was.

To be clear, the category "E"VRD was created with Eddie and ceased to exist when Eddie hung up his paws.

No other dog in the history of sniffer dogs ever owned the title.

Mr. Grime has other dogs now, don't know what classification he has given them though....

[ferryman]

John Barrett, a former Scotland Yard dog handler, also indicated that the trained dogs used in an attempt to detect a "death smell" on Mrs McCann's Bible and clothes were brought in too long after Madeleine vanished.
The crucial scent lasts for no longer than a month, he said.



Quoted in many newspaper articles

Kate Mccann says something similar in her book, if anyone has the quote, please do post, I have it on kindle but cannot copy and paste from it, its something about the scent of death believed to be constituted by putrescine and one other chemical, only this is just not true



Who is this  John Barrett? Was  he a cadaver dog handler? If what he alledgedly said is true, why would the police bother three months later? Wasting time money and energy?
 >@@(*&)

On the Bible (sic) and clothes, i.e. cross-contamination.

I don't think bringing to the dogs over was a total waste as they might have found human remains.

Yes, I would agree with that.

In fact I would go further.  If the dogs had been deployed in a conventional manner, it's possible that the McCanns might never have been made arguidos.

Slight hostage to fortune there, because you can't rule out that Amaral would have concocted another excuse.

Or kept the talons clutched on Robert Murat.

Which would have been equally unsatisfactory ....

[Carana]

...and obviously didn't know (do they now ?) what an EVRD is.

Was.

To be clear, the category "E"VRD was created with Eddie and ceased to exist when Eddie hung up his paws.

No other dog in the history of sniffer dogs ever owned the title.

True.

Personally, I find it feasible that Grime had found some way to enhance Eddie's training at some point with real cadaver scent or contaminated tissues (if so, presumably imported from somewhere). It would have given him an an edge over the services of other dog handlers with dogs trained exclusively on decomposing swine and human blood.

Even if this were the case, it wouldn't have desensitised him to the range of scents that were already within his training parameters, many of which can have perfectly innocent explanations.

Eddie was a canine GP, Keela was the haemotologist.

[Chinagirl]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

[Carana]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

I'm not sure. His first inspection was on 31 July and the others spanned the first week of August.

He may have been still technically working for SYP, but in reality already self-employed depending on whether he had untaken vacation days left.

[Benice]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

I'm not sure. His first inspection was on 31 July and the others spanned the first week of August.

He may have been still technically working for SYP, but in reality already self-employed depending on whether he had untaken vacation days left.

Whichever it was - it's a fact that he had already decided to resign from the Police force to set up his own business and in future Eddie and Keela would be his source of income.   I think it's unrealistic to say that this fact had no bearing or influence at all on his 'mindset' during his searching activities with his dogs, in a case being followed by millions worldwide.  The man is only human after all.   He must have considered the impact this case could have on his own future.

I would have more confidence in a dog handler who had no plans to leave the force at that time - so that there was no possibility of 'self-interest' creeping in.

[ferryman]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

That quote (from The Mail) is wrong, CG.

SYP confirmed in a FOI answer that Grime retired in August.