The dreaded cadaver scent

[ferryman]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

I'm not sure. His first inspection was on 31 July and the others spanned the first week of August.

He may have been still technically working for SYP, but in reality already self-employed depending on whether he had untaken vacation days left.

Yes, that's what I think is most likely.  That he took leave leading up to retirement, was given immediate custody of the dogs and worked in PdL.

I did submit an FOI question of my own directly asking SYP whether he was employed by them when he worked in PdL and they refused to answer, strengthening my impression.

[AnneGuedes]

  The man is only human after all.   He must have considered the impact this case could have on his own future.

Do you admit then, Benice, that Mr and Mrs McCann could have considered the impact on their own future of an eventual accident at home when they weren't there to prevent it or take care of its consequences, or of an eventual abduction in the street when little Madeleine was trying to find where they were ? Aren't they human after all ?

[Benice]

  The man is only human after all.   He must have considered the impact this case could have on his own future.

Do you admit then, Benice, that Mr and Mrs McCann could have considered the impact on their own future of an eventual accident at home when they weren't there to prevent it or take care of its consequences, or of an eventual abduction in the street when little Madeleine was trying to find where they were ? Aren't they human after all ?

I think their decisions and actions were made BECAUSE  they too are ''only human''- and hence can get things wrong.  That's why the phrase - 'human error' is  understood and universally recognised by all. 

[Mrs. B]

IMO this is just another one of those things we just won't know, nobody has seen an invoice made out to the PJ & unless we do. we don't know if it was Grime or the UK police who got paid for the services of the dogs.

[John]

If Madeleine had died in an accident that evening then the amount of time for a cadaver scent to develop would have been very tight - experts say any where from 3 hours + for the body to start to release a scent that cant be classified as cadaver

But again it doesn't really matter as the PJ did not find any forensics that would help them. Nothing - this is what came out so loud in the files I have  read - they were so sure that the dogs would find the smoking gun.

Again the alerting in the hire car to me signifies a big red flag to the accuracy to the dogs giving 100% positive alerts, I can accept that in a panic  the parents might have hidden the body - though where always leaves me - but to then transfer a dead body a month plus later ? Bearing in mind that the " hiding " place must have been fairly close by going by the timelines and witness statements.
I know that this is going over old ground but it still remains the crux of the argument, If you give the the motive as a given - then I have never yet seen a logical method and means

I totally agree.  The PJ would have been able to frame the suspects had it not been for the fact that the case was opened up to international exposure and best British technical science in the form of DNA analysis.  Had the McCanns been Portuguese the outcome would have been so much different for ALL concerned.

[John]

How is anyone supposed to have been familiar with the term EVRD? Grime developed the training technique himself, it was HIS own classification.

Martin Grime: I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. ....


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Also can mentioned here:

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog'.
Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.

ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'
Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html

ETA So, we have only Mr. Grime to rely on with regard to the accuracy of the dogs, no independent authority. And Mr. Grime, as an independent consultant, effectively says: My dogs are excellent,  because I say so.....

Pathetic wasn't it?  I am still waiting on someone to tell me who got paid the tens of thousands of £'s for the fiasco ?

[DCI]

Before release of his main report, John Lowe of the Forensic Science Service wrote a long email to Stuart Prior of Leicestershire Police about a particular result from the boot of the McCanns’ hire car, where some markers from a mixed DNA sample were the same as markers from the control DNA profile of Madeleine. 6 words from that email are key: “too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion”. In his main report, Lowe summarises that result without mention of Madeleine by name, repeating: “too complex for meaningful interpretation”. No contradiction at all.
 
I shan’t name and shame, but I have actually debated with people that think what was too complex for John Lowe, a forensic expert, to interpret could nevertheless be interpreted by a judge, or even a jury. The forum myth is one some people are loath to let go of.
 Certain claims of Martin Grime in his profile raise an eyebrow.
 
As a full-time Police Constable with South Yorkshire Police (SYP) (the most junior rank of serving officer in the British Police Force), he claims to have been also an advisor to the FBI and the US Department of justice. He claims to have been instrumental in training programmes in the US, and to have introduced swine cadavers/cadaver scent into training in the States. In some States of America, as everywhere in Britain, use of human cadaver or human cadaver scents is not acceptable, and in those States, as in Britain, swine cadavers are used to train dogs. It is surprising that Martin Grime should have taught the Americans anything new about that.
 
Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times. This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.
Either Eddie must have had one very busy year or Grime has got his sums wrong.
 
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062
 
Some States in America use human cadavers to train cadaver dogs on what are known as ‘body farms’. Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States. An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie’s performance, but that it would “generate some income potential”.
 
Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documention confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.
 
Still, Grime describes both Eddie and Keela as the only “assets” (as he describes them) of their type in the world. Clearly Eddie’s apparent training on a body farm in America wouldn’t make him that, because many dogs in America are trained the same, so what would?
 Whatever it is, perhaps that is why there are no references to the “Enhanced” Victim Recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime?
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also in Portuguese.

http://madeleine-writingthewrongs.info/steel-magnolia-and-the-enigmatic-martin-grime/

[Redblossom]

This thread has gone dreadfully off topic. There are plenty other ones to bash Mr Grime, the dogs and Mr Amaral, see any of Ferrymans threads.

Carana,there were no human remains in 5a, so that was not the reason Mr Harrison recommended sending the dog in, three months later.

[John]

This thread has gone dreadfully off topic. There are plenty other ones to bash Mr Grime, the dogs and Mr Amaral, see any of Ferrymans threads.

Carana,there were no human remains in 5a, so that was not the reason Mr Harrison recommended sending the dog in, three months later.

You might consider it bashing Redblossom as is your prerogative but why shouldn't they attract criticism?  After all they both failed miserably to prove anything and one was even forced to resign from the police force in disgrace before he was kicked out having been convicted of a criminal offence by his peers.

[Redblossom]

This thread has gone dreadfully off topic. There are plenty other ones to bash Mr Grime, the dogs and Mr Amaral, see any of Ferrymans threads.

Carana,there were no human remains in 5a, so that was not the reason Mr Harrison recommended sending the dog in, three months later.

You might consider it bashing Redblossom as is your prerogative but why shouldn't they attract criticism?  After all they both failed miserably to prove anything and one was even forced to resign from the police force in disgrace before he was kicked out having been convicted of a criminal offence by his peers.

You can criticise them all you like but on the proper threads specifically designed for it and there are plenty of them about,I asked a very very specific question and it has descended, very predictably of course, into a Grime is a conman, liar, fraudster fest,  its pathetic at best

PS Mr Grimes job is not to prove anything, neither was Amarals, its the courts who try to do that

And Amaral was taken off the Madeleine case in Oct 07, and worked until June 08 in another dept,after which he resigned of his own accord, he was not kicked out by anyone and his conviction was not until 2009

[Carana]

This thread has gone dreadfully off topic. There are plenty other ones to bash Mr Grime, the dogs and Mr Amaral, see any of Ferrymans threads.

Carana,there were no human remains in 5a, so that was not the reason Mr Harrison recommended sending the dog in, three months later.

I disagree. And I say that whoever was responsible. They might have found something gruesome (a bit of bone stuck down a shower drain, remains in the garden, a blood-soaked mattress with her DNA that had been turned over or anything in some kind of loft or crawl area).

The results turned out to be negative in terms of any forensic evidence, but at least it was checked. Eventually.

[John]

This thread has gone dreadfully off topic. There are plenty other ones to bash Mr Grime, the dogs and Mr Amaral, see any of Ferrymans threads.

Carana,there were no human remains in 5a, so that was not the reason Mr Harrison recommended sending the dog in, three months later.

You might consider it bashing Redblossom as is your prerogative but why shouldn't they attract criticism?  After all they both failed miserably to prove anything and one was even forced to resign from the police force in disgrace before he was kicked out having been convicted of a criminal offence by his peers.

You can criticise them all you like but on the proper threads specifically designed for it and there are plenty of them about,I asked a very very specific question and it has descended, very predictably of course, into a Grime is a conman, liar, fraudster fest,  its pathetic at best

PS Mr Grimes job is not to prove anything, neither was Amarals, its the courts who try to do that

And Amaral was taken off the Madeleine case in Oct 07, and worked until June 08 in another dept,after which he resigned of his own accord, he was not kicked out by anyone and his conviction was not until 2009

Get a grip Redblossom and please read my post properly.  Amaral had nowhere to go after his stupid claims against the McCanns.  He was humiliated when he was removed from his job as coordinator by his superiors and he knew that if he didn't resign he would be kicked out and lose his pension. He wasn't prepared to take that risk.

Now he is going to be humiliated all over again when he is forced to settle the civil suit brought against him by the McCanns.

[Carana]

This thread has gone dreadfully off topic. There are plenty other ones to bash Mr Grime, the dogs and Mr Amaral, see any of Ferrymans threads.

Carana,there were no human remains in 5a, so that was not the reason Mr Harrison recommended sending the dog in, three months later.

You might consider it bashing Redblossom as is your prerogative but why shouldn't they attract criticism?  After all they both failed miserably to prove anything and one was even forced to resign from the police force in disgrace before he was kicked out having been convicted of a criminal offence by his peers.

You can criticise them all you like but on the proper threads specifically designed for it and there are plenty of them about,I asked a very very specific question and it has descended, very predictably of course, into a Grime is a conman, liar, fraudster fest,  its pathetic at best

PS Mr Grimes job is not to prove anything, neither was Amarals, its the courts who try to do that

And Amaral was taken off the Madeleine case in Oct 07, and worked until June 08 in another dept,after which he resigned of his own accord, he was not kicked out by anyone and his conviction was not until 2009

Are you sure that that is entirely accurate?

[John]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

I'm not sure. His first inspection was on 31 July and the others spanned the first week of August.

He may have been still technically working for SYP, but in reality already self-employed depending on whether he had untaken vacation days left.

Whichever it was - it's a fact that he had already decided to resign from the Police force to set up his own business and in future Eddie and Keela would be his source of income.   I think it's unrealistic to say that this fact had no bearing or influence at all on his 'mindset' during his searching activities with his dogs, in a case being followed by millions worldwide.  The man is only human after all.   He must have considered the impact this case could have on his own future.

I would have more confidence in a dog handler who had no plans to leave the force at that time - so that there was no possibility of 'self-interest' creeping in.

The dogs were the property of the police so how did he end up owning this asset?  Isn't it the case that the dogs would have been totally useless without Grime?  If grime went the dogs had to go too.

[John]

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business

Isn't there an argument somewhere on one of these threads about whether or not Grime was still a serving a police officer when he went to Portugal?  Seems that the no's have it ....

That quote (from The Mail) is wrong, CG.

SYP confirmed in a FOI answer that Grime retired in August.

So let's get this straight then.  It would have been South Yorkshire Police whom the Portuguese would have had to pay for services rendered and not the serving constable Grime?