Was the crime scene contaminated?

[Admin]

Was the crime scene contaminated even prior to the GNR and the PJ arriving on the scene?   Should the police have secured the potential crime scene at the first opportunity?

[amaraltheofficeboy]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

[gilet]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

[Redblossom]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

Thats rich

no different to the criminal incompetence of the mccanns allowing 20  or so people to trample through the flat before police ever got a chance to get there, all footprints in the kids room rendered null and void because of that, the  AGs final report confirms this destroying of the crime scene!

In the drama of the moment, nobody - parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel - was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes - apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code - thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.

[gilet]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

Thats rich

no different to the criminal incompetence of the mccanns allowing 20  or so people to trample through the flat before police ever got a chance to get there, all footprints in the kids room rendered null and void because of that, the  AGs final report confirms this destroying of the crime scene!

In the drama of the moment, nobody - parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel - was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes - apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code - thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.

Not rich at all.

Are you bizarrely suggesting that there should have been nobody looking for Madeleine in that apartment prior to the Police being called and their subsequent arrival?

That would be madness?  You seem to be advocating madness.

And how does it excuse the pitiful incompetence of the GNR PROFESSIONALS? They were surely aware that a crime scene should be secured?

[gilet]

From all reports most of the people were the mccanns and friends and oc employees, remember the damage forensically was done BEFORE police arrived, irresponsible, and that includes gerryand his mates putting their grubby paws  all over the shutters, doctors should have known better, pah

So, I take it you have no idea how many people were in the apartment before the GNR officers were on the scene?

And odd that the one of the most significant damages done to the scene that I have read about in the files was done by dogs leaving hair.

I am not aware of any dogs having been in the possession of the McCanns whilst in Portugal.

[Benice]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

Thats rich

no different to the criminal incompetence of the mccanns allowing 20  or so people to trample through the flat before police ever got a chance to get there, all footprints in the kids room rendered null and void because of that, the  AGs final report confirms this destroying of the crime scene!

In the drama of the moment, nobody - parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel - was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes - apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code - thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.

The AG gives a valid reason why the parents etc. did not treat the scene as a crime scene -  and actually it was not a crime scene until AFTER people had searched everywhere and established that Madeleine was not there.   Obviously the first thing anyone would do in those circumstances is to search the whole place.   

However, they were not policemen and policeman ARE supposed to be 'cold and lucid' enough to view the scene differently.   But even one of the policemen who arrived searched the whole apartment in the same way as the parents and others did -  and there was no need for the dogs to be inside the apartment at any time.

What the McCanns and others did was natural and understandable.  What the police did was unprofessional and incompetent.  IMO

[DCI]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

Thats rich

no different to the criminal incompetence of the mccanns allowing 20  or so people to trample through the flat before police ever got a chance to get there, all footprints in the kids room rendered null and void because of that, the  AGs final report confirms this destroying of the crime scene!

In the drama of the moment, nobody - parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel - was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes - apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code - thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.

Not rich at all.

Are you bizarrely suggesting that there should have been nobody looking for Madeleine in that apartment prior to the Police being called and their subsequent arrival?

That would be madness?  You seem to be advocating madness.

And how does it excuse the pitiful incompetence of the GNR PROFESSIONALS? They were surely aware that a crime scene should be secured?

Like this one,  Pedro Miguel Filipe Goncalo Vilhena, finger print expert.

Two mouth swabs from Pedro Miguel Filipe Goncalo Vilhena.
Pattern samples taken from the clothes worn by Pedro Miguel Filipe Goncalo Vilhena.

Seems there's no statement from him, as I can find.

[gilet]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

Thats rich

no different to the criminal incompetence of the mccanns allowing 20  or so people to trample through the flat before police ever got a chance to get there, all footprints in the kids room rendered null and void because of that, the  AGs final report confirms this destroying of the crime scene!

In the drama of the moment, nobody - parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel - was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes - apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code - thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.

The AG gives a valid reason why the parents etc. did not treat the scene as a crime scene -  and actually it was not a crime scene until AFTER people had searched everywhere and established that Madeleine was not there.   Obviously the first thing anyone would do in those circumstances is to search the whole place.   

However, they were not policemen and policeman ARE supposed to be 'cold and lucid' enough to view the scene differently.   But even one of the policemen who arrived searched the whole apartment in the same way as the parents and others did -  and there was no need for the dogs to be inside the apartment at any time.

What the McCanns and others did was natural and understandable.  What the police did was unprofessional and incompetent.  IMO

I absolutely agree.

And the suggestion that there should not have been a thorough search of the apartment by a number of people prior to the calling of the police is madness. 

Why am I not surprised?

[amaraltheofficeboy]

if YOU want to believe the PJ are satans spawn, carry on believing, if it eases your mind

Oh yes, if believing this "eases somebody's mind", good for him/her !
No effect on the PJ, no effect on the flow of things.

and that is a very very telling comment.

so after all the failures that Amaral himself points out in his book it will have no affect on the PJ.

a Police force that doesn't learn by mistakes.

[DCI]

if YOU want to believe the PJ are satans spawn, carry on believing, if it eases your mind

Oh yes, if believing this "eases somebody's mind", good for him/her !
No effect on the PJ, no effect on the flow of things.

and that is a very very telling comment.

so after all the failures that Amaral himself points out in his book it will have no affect on the PJ.

a Police force that doesn't learn by mistakes.

But, were they mistakes, amaraltheofficeboy?  8-)(--)

[amaraltheofficeboy]

apparently not - just normal Police work in Portugal.

[gilet]

it has been discussed before on here

And as with this incompetence on the part of the PJ over the bedding, simply dismissed as irrelevant.

It beggars belief that people who claim to seek the truth can be so casual about the importance of forensics at the scene of a crime.

UK police  couldnt even fnd a body in a loft on two occasions and  using dogs,or have the nous to check the area where April Jones was abducted from, for forensics, if YOU want to believe the PJ are satans spawn, carry on believing, if it eases your mind

Specific examples of potential incompetence in other cases cannot in any way excuse the fact that in this particular case (the disappearance of Madeleine McCann) the PJ showed very high levels of incompetence.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

And it was precisely this kind of rank incompetence on the part of the PJ and GNR in the very first moments of the case and onwards which would (in my view) have led to the McCanns and their friends and relatives wanting the fund to focus on any way in which the child might be found. Having seen the shambles of the PJ they wanted anything or anyone that might just give them some kind of hope to be used.

[Redblossom]

there were a lot of dog hairs though

Ah yes, those police dogs who were allowed to trample over the crime scene before forensics were able to deal with it.

Another example of the almost criminal incompetence of the PJ and GNR.

Thats rich

no different to the criminal incompetence of the mccanns allowing 20  or so people to trample through the flat before police ever got a chance to get there, all footprints in the kids room rendered null and void because of that, the  AGs final report confirms this destroying of the crime scene!

In the drama of the moment, nobody - parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel - was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes - apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code - thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.

The AG gives a valid reason why the parents etc. did not treat the scene as a crime scene -  and actually it was not a crime scene until AFTER people had searched everywhere and established that Madeleine was not there.   Obviously the first thing anyone would do in those circumstances is to search the whole place.   

However, they were not policemen and policeman ARE supposed to be 'cold and lucid' enough to view the scene differently.   But even one of the policemen who arrived searched the whole apartment in the same way as the parents and others did -  and there was no need for the dogs to be inside the apartment at any time.

What the McCanns and others did was natural and understandable.  What the police did was unprofessional and incompetent.  IMO

The POINT is that evidence was compromised and the PT police get all the blame for it, when obviously it was not them that compromised it as it had been before they even got there, any rational person would and shouldagree with this, similar to sayng the police were responsible for losing the golden hour after the abduction, poppycock at best, as no one knows when the alledged abduction occurred, even if it HAD ocurred at 9.15, police were not called till 22.41, and came within 10 mins or so, so, no golden hour

[gilet]

if YOU want to believe the PJ are satans spawn, carry on believing, if it eases your mind

Oh yes, if believing this "eases somebody's mind", good for him/her !
No effect on the PJ, no effect on the flow of things.

and that is a very very telling comment.

so after all the failures that Amaral himself points out in his book it will have no affect on the PJ.

a Police force that doesn't learn by mistakes.

Absolutely disgraceful.