Author Topic: The question of sedation  (Read 23348 times)

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Offline muratfan

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2013, 08:32:59 PM »
Chloroform onto a handkerchief and administered onto the subjects mouth and nose area, will not leave any trace on pillows or bedding..

Why, because you do not need a lot of it to knock you out, so someone is not going to pour a bottles worth over someone

AnneGuedes

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2013, 08:35:55 PM »
If I had found any information in the files I wouldn't have asked the question...
If the PJ files aren't sufficiently informative, try asking the LC about the Portuguese scientific police work. They surely know better than anybody here, unless a cop is a poster here.
In democracies, common citizens trust the PGR among other authorities. Social life would be unbearable if you'd start doubting every authority, Carana.

Redblossom

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2013, 08:36:05 PM »
Chloroform onto a handkerchief and administered onto the subjects mouth and nose area, will not leave any trace on pillows or bedding..

Why, because you do not need a lot of it to knock you out, so someone is not going to pour a bottles worth over someone

Good job the p j tested for it and other stuff anyway then, but some dont believe they did even when they said so lol, had enough for a while here, getting pathetically ridiculous

AnneGuedes

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2013, 08:41:05 PM »
Chloroform in Madeleine's bed would have left traces. She wasn't elsewhere since her father saw her in her bed 5 minutes before she was taken. She wasn't chloroformed then.

Offline DCI

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2013, 08:44:22 PM »
Where does it mention the bedding (all the bedding) being tested? its all about the other bed, bar the pillow area. How ridculous, testing one piece.

On the single bed opposite to that from which the child disappeared, despite it being impregnated the red-coloured chemical product referred to, the search for hairs proceeded,that search having been negative.

After the recovery of hairs described above there proceeded the search for possible traces of semen, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, there being identified various [several] areas where fluorescence characteristic of this type of trace evidence was seen.

The areas where the fluorescence was seen were submitted to a "Phosphatise test" search there being a slightly positive reaction (purplish colour) only in area of the bed-cover of the single bed opposite to the bed from where the minor disappeared, a piece of that bed-cover being collected and placed inside a paper envelope in accordance with instructions issued by the Biology Section of the LPC, it being referenced as trace evidence #5;

A search was also made for possible biological traces and fibres on the single bed from where the minor disappeared, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, the result obtained having been negative.

The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative

There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
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Offline muratfan

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2013, 08:45:27 PM »
Good job the p j tested for it and other stuff anyway then, but some dont believe they did even when they said so lol, had enough for a while here, getting pathetically ridiculous

How can you test for something that will never ever be there. Not saying it happened , however,  a fatal oral dose of chloroform may be as small as 10 mL.
Cough syrups containing chloroform can still be legally purchased in pharmacies and supermarkets in the UK

Offline muratfan

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2013, 08:46:23 PM »
10 ML on a tissue, will not spill onto bedding or a pillow..... now argue that please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform

Offline DCI

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2013, 08:47:51 PM »
I agree totally. Who here can answer your questions, Carana ? Pretend you're writing a book comparing the police techniques in the EU and may be the Portugueses will open their doors to you.
Madeleine's bedding wasn't taken to the first floor, at least, it didn't have to, unfortunately. The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
About the tests made inside of the crime scene and about the bags that were taken for analysis out of the crime scene, it's like in the UK : no one knows, but everybody trusts.

OMG!

The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.

So if the twins, had been Chloroformed ???
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Offline Carana

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2013, 08:50:06 PM »
I agree totally. Who here can answer your questions, Carana ? Pretend you're writing a book comparing the police techniques in the EU and may be the Portugueses will open their doors to you.
Madeleine's bedding wasn't taken to the first floor, at least, it didn't have to, unfortunately. The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
About the tests made inside of the crime scene and about the bags that were taken for analysis out of the crime scene, it's like in the UK : no one knows, but everybody trusts.

Hairs, finger / handprints and a test done on a bedspread were documented (even though hairs from the bed disappeared and the initial bedspread test eventually turned out to be innocuous, but that is beside the point).

If the pillowcase from her bed in 5A had been taken for any kind of test, why is that not mentioned? If a specific test had been done in situ, I haven't found any details of that either.

Hence my question.

Perhaps there was no specific test to be done. A substance on a small hankie may not have even contaminated the pillowcase.



Offline Carana

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2013, 08:54:08 PM »
If the PJ files aren't sufficiently informative, try asking the LC about the Portuguese scientific police work. They surely know better than anybody here, unless a cop is a poster here.
In democracies, common citizens trust the PGR among other authorities. Social life would be unbearable if you'd start doubting every authority, Carana.

Why make the files accessible in the first place then?

Offline Mo Stache

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2013, 08:58:36 PM »
Would the window of opportunity (the abductor theory) regarding Chloroform use to sedate Madeleine, not have been too short? Chloroform doesn't work as quick as in the movies and for one to have success in sedation, you would have the correct ratio of dosage to body weight (or a close estimate). 

Offline muratfan

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2013, 09:03:28 PM »
Would the window of opportunity (the abductor theory) regarding Chloroform use to sedate Madeleine, not have been too short? Chloroform doesn't work as quick as in the movies and for one to have success in sedation, you would have the correct ratio of dosage to body weight (or a close estimate).

Depends how the body reacts to it, bear in mind she was 3 when she went missing. Three year olds will not have the same resistance as an adult

AnneGuedes

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2013, 09:06:01 PM »
How can you test for something that will never ever be there. Not saying it happened , however,  a fatal oral dose of chloroform may be as small as 10 mL.
Cough syrups containing chloroform can still be legally purchased in pharmacies and supermarkets in the UK
This is true, they contain ether as well,  but the very small quantities (classified with the perfumes) are within the range authorized in the EU. No way to sedate a child with syrup !

Offline Mo Stache

Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2013, 09:06:35 PM »
Depends how the body reacts to it, bear in mind she was 3 when she went missing. Three year olds will not have the same resistance as an adult
Yes I understand what you saying, but would, for arguments sake, 3 minutes be enough to sedate a 3 year old child AND then still remove her from the apartment?

AnneGuedes

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Re: The question of sedation
« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2013, 09:14:41 PM »
Why make the files accessible in the first place then?
Because they thought the public interest had been very much solicited and deserved it. And also the law allowed it. It was unthinkable that the McCanns, who wanted them, had access to the files and not the public. Do you agree with this ?
The British have another philosophy, this is why you don't have access to the LC files.