The facts: Madeleine McCann is alive and well or a long time deceased.

[sadie]

CCs husband saying she heard someone calling for  Madeleine is odd

They left the tapas bar between 9.15 and 9.30


Who would be calling her name and why?

They said they so noone in the road, or at least they didnt see anyone, I originally thought they might have heard Gerry and Jez speaking or Matt and Russell chatting as they went for their check,  so who was calling her name and why
 >@@(*&)

When translated by Maria (J4) the callling came out as Caroline heard someone murmuring/whispering.  That is very different from calling.

[AnneGuedes]

Why do you suggest people had been told Madeleine was dead ? Do you think, Benice, that David and Matthew who were spotted looking anxiously around the Tapas esplanade were simulating ?

[Benice]

Why do you suggest people had been told Madeleine was dead ? Do you think, Benice, that David and Matthew who were spotted looking anxiously around the Tapas esplanade were simulating ?

I was following Faith's theory.  i.e. That Gerry found Madeleine dead in the apartment on the 3rd. and decided to dispose of her body  - and after his chance meeting with Jez -  Jane Tanner agreed to lie to give him an alibi and tell the police that she had passed them -  and immediately afterwards saw the abductor.  And also to give him an alibi if the Smiths later identified him.  How he knew in advance he was going to bump into the Smiths isn't clear.      The only time he had to plot that plan with JT was at the Tapas after his meeting with Jez W.  He couldn't do that without telling the others as well - as they would have to remember the details/times  of the 'pretend' check JT did. 

I could have got bits wrong - it's all so illogical, and complicated - not to mention physically impossible in the time available, that it's not easy to follow or remember all the details.

[AnneGuedes]

I was following Faith's theory.  i.e. That Gerry found Madeleine dead in the apartment on the 3rd. and decided to dispose of her body  - and after his chance meeting with Jez -  Jane Tanner agreed to lie to give him an alibi and tell the police that she had passed them -  and immediately afterwards saw the abductor.  And also to give him an alibi if the Smiths later identified him.  How he knew in advance he was going to bump into the Smiths isn't clear.      The only time he had to plot that plan with JT was at the Tapas after his meeting with Jez W.  He couldn't do that without telling the others as well - as they would have to remember the details/times  of the 'pretend' check JT did. 

I could have got bits wrong - it's all so illogical, and complicated - not to mention physically impossible in the time available, that it's not easy to follow or remember all the details.

Have you got a quote for this theory, Benice ? I must have missed it, because I have no idea Faithlilly wondered whether Mr McCann had plotted with Ms Tanner when they all were having dinner.
I personally can't figure out that Ms Tanner "agreed to lie", but, after having watched the McCann "reconstruction" and the pressure upon Ms Tanner about the side of the street, I can imagine her being manipulated about the time and place of her sighting.

[icabodcrane]

[/b]

Of course he wasn't COMPELLED to.   Like any other sensible person he recognised that there was  no sane reason to believe that 7 perfectly normal intelligent people, some of whom hardly knew the McCanns, would put their own families lives in jeopardy and agree to pervert the course of justice by aiding and abetting the disposal of a dead child's body.

That would make them all simple-minded nutters - and they clearly were not.   
And thankfully neither was the AG.

I don't think the prosector came to his decision because he felt that the McCanns friends 'could'  not be lying  ...  just that he had no other choice  (  in law )  other than to accept what they said as being truthful   (  there being no evidence to the contrary  ) 

That is by-the-by  though,  the discussion was whether or not any witnesses   (  other than the McCann's friends )  had said Gerry was definately at the table at 10pm

The fact is,  of course,  that none did 

[Carana]

When translated by Maria (J4) the callling came out as Caroline heard someone murmuring/whispering. That is very different from calling.

I don't see that, Sadie, but the English translation appears to be based on the Portuguese translation of the rogatory interview, which would have obviously been in English.

My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".

The PT translation, from which it was retranslated back into English is here:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR3/cr3_40.jpg


Personally, I wouldn't put great store on that.

- It was what her husband understood from a discussion with his wife involving a vague memory. It could have been anyone calling someone else and she wondered if she'd heard anything potentially significant.

- Her statement doesn't appear to be accessible.

[DCI]

I don't see that, Sadie, but the English translation appears to be based on the Portuguese translation of the rogatory interview, which would have obviously been in English.

My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".

The PT translation, from which it was retranslated back into English is here:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR3/cr3_40.jpg

Personally, I wouldn't put great store on that.

- It was what her husband understood from a discussion with his wife involving a vague memory. It could have been anyone calling someone else and she wondered if she'd heard anything potentially significant.

- Her statement doesn't appear to be accessible.

Why would it be re translated into English, Carana. Isn't this the original?
If it is, its a Rogatory statement, taken by Leicestershire Police Force. The first one was taken by a UK police officer on the 17th May. There was no Portuguese statement taken, from the Carpenters.

[Carana]

Why would it be re translated into English, Carana. Isn't this the original?
If it is, its a Rogatory statement, taken by Leicestershire Police Force. The first one was taken by a UK police officer on the 17th May. There was no Portuguese statement taken, from the Carpenters.

I retract that as I'd checked it too quickly.

What's odd is that the accompanying official document is the PT version in the original layout.

I'd agree, upon rereading it, that the English seems authentic. But still no indication of murmuring/whispering.

[DCI]

I retract that as I'd checked it too quickly.

What's odd is that the accompanying official document is the PT version in the original layout.

I'd agree, upon rereading it, that the English seems authentic. But still no indication of murmuring/whispering.

No Indication of murmuring/whispering, from who, SC or PJ statement?

[Carana]

No Indication of murmuring/whispering, from who, SC or PJ statement?

I've never seen anything about this "murmuring/whispering" issue from SC. No idea what his wife said as her statement doesn't seem to be accessible.

I don't see any mention of it in either the PT or GB versions.

[DCI]

I've never seen anything about this "murmuring/whispering" issue from SC. No idea what his wife said as her statement doesn't seem to be accessible.

I don't see any mention of it in either the PT or GB versions.

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

[ferryman]

I've never seen anything about this "murmuring/whispering" issue from SC. No idea what his wife said as her statement doesn't seem to be accessible.

I don't see any mention of it in either the PT or GB versions.

Yes, I do remember it.

It caused quite a stir when Stephen Carpenter's statement first emerged (late, as I recall ...)

[sadie]

Having read ferrymans words above I have scored out my just posted retraction.

Thank you ferryman 

The word Maria used was either murmured or whispered .... and as I cant remember which I always say murmured/whispered



I have been into J4, searching, but do not have full access.  IIRC, it was in Alroys section on Theories of what happened ... or maybe in a special Stephen and Caroline Carpenter thread?     We also discussed the laundryman and the garage that he used as mentioned by Stephen.  A garage next to Murats house that was fitted out inside as ?temporary living accomodation  for a young man ... and Stephen thought that it was strange that there were toys in there.  This may have been discussed straight from the PT files, before the Leicestershire Police interview in April 2008.   Dianeh was there, in the same thread, and may remember it.

Re Caroline Carpenters words, we had a discussion with maria (PT, I think) on translations and the fact that the English Language has many more words to describe something, than most languages.  I think she originally said that it translated to being called, or talked. <<<< something like that.

but after I had mentioned that the English Language had such a multitude of words that effectively equated to one word in PT, she agreed and came back with a translation of either murmured, or whispered, saying that seemed closer.


Anyway seems that we need not have translated the Portuguese, cos seems Stephen Carpenter has affirmed the translatioin "called":  Statement number S87B

This was read back to Stephen Carpenter by Leicestershire Police Officer DCFerguson on 21st April 2008  /SNIP/-


Because I am sadly unable to verify murmured/whispered, I retract those words.
#
See next post

[sadie]

Deleted.  Accidentally posted in the wrong place.

[ferryman]

This is it, Sadie, from Stephen Carpenter's rogatory interview:

. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance". OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

DCF: Yes, and where you state that it was on GMTV.

SC:: Yes..

DCF: I think that it was reported that it was a three year old child and probably thought who could it be and knew that Kate and Gerry were from Leicestershire and assumed that it was one of their children seeing that they had small children'

SC: Ah.