THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor

[Redblossom]

The open shutters/window aren't a red herring. The statement "the open shutters could be a red herring" is a red herring.
As the speculation about key copy reveals.

Agreed there Anne

And as for the copy key isconcerned, lets not forget gerry mccanns wild claim on cnn in his interview with piers morgan that any number of holidaymakers staying in 5a over many years went back home with the  key to 5a
 


and then?
they imagined they wanted to abduct a child in the future who might stay in 5a?

not enough laughing smilies on here



MORGAN: Do you know that yet? Do you know -- is there any evidence how this person came in the room?

G. MCCANN: I mean no doubt, there are a number of options. And --

MORGAN: No, actual evidence. There's nothing they could find to say this is unequivocally how this person came in?

G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --

[AnneGuedes]

G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --

This interview was in 2011. 4 years after the scientific police found no evidence of using the window, Mr McCann has still some affection for the ex broken shutters.The patio door went to the bin because it questions their watching it. Doesn't the key lead sound promising ?

[John]

If I can go back to the post for a minute which recalled Rachael's remark claiming that the patio door shutter was down or closed.   It is possible the shutter was down which covered the fixed panel adjacent to the patio door.  Again I will point out that had the patio door shutter been down the McCanns would not have been able to get into the apartment using the patio door.

[Albertini]

If I can go back to the post for a minute which recalled Rachael's remark claiming that the patio door shutter was down or closed.   It is possible the shutter was down which covered the fixed panel adjacent to the patio door.  Again I will point out that had the patio door shutter been down the McCanns would not have been able to get into the apartment using the patio door.

Which could be a valid interpretation had Rachel not specifically said:

The window shutters of the McCann's apartments were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.

Which goes into detail about the patio door being covered by the shutter.

[sadie]

Agreed there Anne

And as for the copy key isconcerned, lets not forget gerry mccanns wild claim on cnn in his interview with piers morgan that any number of holidaymakers staying in 5a over many years went back home with the  key to 5a
 

I have done that, Red, although in recent years my key has been of the plastic type (like a bank card).   I have also lost my key whilst on holiday. 

more likely tho, that someone to do with OC was involved.

[sadie]

This interview was in 2011. 4 years after the scientific police found no evidence of using the window, Mr McCann has still some affection for the ex broken shutters.The patio door went to the bin because it questions their watching it. Doesn't the key lead sound promising ?

To me it sounds promising too, Anne, in view of how difficult it would have been to enter 5A by any other means than the front door.

With a key, that was so quick and easy ... and safe.  Both in and out.

But a safety route out had to be ensured, in case anyone came and blocked his / her exit via the front door.   Hence the window and shutters being opened.

[Albertini]

To me it sounds promising too, Anne, in view of how difficult it would have been to enter 5A by any other means than the front door.

With a key, that was so quick and easy ... and safe.  Both in and out.

But a safety route out had to be ensured, in case anyone came and blocked his / her exit via the front door.   Hence the window and shutters being opened.

I thought we had covered this. The opening of a window and shutter from inside was incredibly risky to the point of being amateurish.

Once inside the apartment, an abductor raising the shutter from inside would have no way of knowing who was walking past when he opened the shutter.

He could have been spotted there and then, for what? An escape route?

That's a huge risk given people were backwards and forwarding all the time across that car park.

Plus of course given the timings he would have had to:

Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.

All in the time from gerry leaving the tapas to Jane leaving 5 minutes later.

[John]

Good points Albertini and you have also given me an idea.  Could the shutter have been raised to allow whatever light there was into the bedroom so that the abductor could see what he was doing?

Rachael is totally wrong in her assertion that the McCanns could raise the shutter in order to get in by means of the patio door.  The patio door shutter could not be raised from the outside using the pull strap.  If it wasn't locked down it could be raised manually but someone would have to have held it up on the outside while a second person opened the door and went inside to pull the strap.

[sadie]

I thought we had covered this. The opening of a window and shutter from inside was incredibly risky to the point of being amateurish.

Once inside the apartment, an abductor raising the shutter from inside would have no way of knowing who was walking past when he opened the shutter.

Nobody walked past.  Was a dead end .  Only led to the Mccanns front door.   If someone by a great fluke saw the abductor, he could still flee thru the patio door.  So a non-runner.  Sorry Albertini

He could have been spotted there and then, for what? An escape route?

I believe that there were at least two peeps.  One was the lifter and the other bundleman.  Madeleines head changing arms supports this belief of a pass over from one person to the other [along with other things covered before]  Bundleman would have been keeping watch on the outside and handing things thru the window BUT not Madeleine.  I think she was walked out thru the front door by the lifter before being passed to bundleman.  The front door; the fastest, the safest and the easiest route.

An escape route was necessary in case someone came in via the patio doors.  Then the lifter would be unable to go thru the sitting room to the front door.

That's a huge risk given people were backwards and forwarding all the time across that car park.

Not so, if someone outside was watching out

Plus of course given the timings he would have had to:

Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.

1)  It is my belief that someone gave all three a light sleeping draft, either at tea time ... or via a doctored sweetie or drink. 
They were all extra tired that night.  Too tired for their play on the slide with the other kids.
2)  Opening the shutters and window would not take long.  The shutters might have been lifted from outside by bundleman and if the window was only slid shut, that too
3)  With the light from the sitting room shining in it wouldn't be difficult to spot Madeleine; she was the only one in a bed.  Could even have spotted her by the moonlight. 
Wonder if Madeleine was chosen because of the ease of silently lifting her from her bed, rather than having to struggle with lifting a sleeping child from a small cot?
4)  Now why would an abductor turn her round so that her head faced the opposite direction?  Doesn't make sense Albertini, no need to do it and s/he wouldn't have done it.  Simples.
She was passed to bundleman; that is why her head was on the opposite arm. Think about it Albertini.
5)   No emergency ... no need to escape ... so s/he walked out of the front door and probably immediately passed Madeleine over.
Turned round, pulled the door to, using the key ... virtually silently, having turned the key.

So no finger prints at all.  Only the key touched.

All in the time from gerry leaving the tapas to Jane leaving 5 minutes later.

Could have done the lot easily in two minutes.  I tried a similar exercise and it took me less than a minute ... in and out by the front door.  Easy.


Was someone from OC involved?

[Carana]

I was under the impression that this type of key is very common in Portugal. If so, locksmiths would presumably be equipped to make duplicates within a short space of time.

If someone did surreptitiously get a duplicate made, it needn't even involve an OC employee. I know of burglaries committed by people who had taken keys out of jacket pockets or bags whilst having lunch or whatever, had them duplicated and replaced. The victims never noticed a thing... until they got home. Then, of course, a huge hassle trying to claim on insurance as there was no sign of a break-in.

Some people are saying that there is no evidence that keys had been reported as lost or stolen... but is there any evidence in the files that the police asked?

If that type of key is indeed very common, a locksmith would have no particular reason to remember duplicating an "unusual" key... It would be just one more in a day's work. It would still have been worth checking with them though, IMO, in case they'd noticed anything strange about the person requesting it or if they'd noticed anything specific about the key (scratch mark or anything else), or even if they offered other services and only one or two people had requested a duplicate in recent weeks or months.

It is also possible that a previous employee who had had access to keys could have made duplicates. Were previous employees checked out? If so, did any of them have a criminal record or were known to associate with those who had?

In view of the press leaks, would an employee have felt comfortable reporting a suspicion about a current or previous colleague, or family member or friend? Without even suspecting someone, were they questioned about any colleagues who had keys returned later than necessary? Reasons could be perfectly innocent, obviously, but  were any questions asked about whether any such incidents had occurred?

[DCI]

They don't have had to use a locksmith, to duplicate the keys.
If it is a regular and lucrative business, whats to stop them doing their own. Key Cutters/Duplicators, can be bought, by anyone.

[Carana]

They don't have had to use a locksmith, to duplicate the keys.
If it is a regular and lucrative business, whats to stop them doing their own. Key Cotters/Duplicators, can be bought, by anyone.

I have read about faster ways to duplicate keys also ... but I won't be posting links for fairly obvious reasons.

[DCI]

I have read about faster ways to duplicate keys also ... but I won't be posting links for fairly obvious reasons.

Yes me to, Carana 

[sadie]

I have read about faster ways to duplicate keys also ... but I won't be posting links for fairly obvious reasons.

The cheapest and easiest way to duplicate a complex key such as that is to make a simple sand casting of it.  Tells you how to do it at home on the internet.

That key has a rough finish and looks like a copy.  A copy made by casting it

After casting, some filing or simple machining would very likely be needed to tidy up the fraze.

{I worked in a foundry for some months as part of my training.  Very hot and interesting place, pouring boiling metal and sparks flying everywhere.    Rough and ready ... but people with hearts as big as buckets worked there.  Loved them all.  An experience that I will never forget]


But, in order to make a copy, one first must get hold of the original to make the mould.  So, someone with attachments to OC involved?

[sadie]

I have read about faster ways to duplicate keys also ... but I won't be posting links for fairly obvious reasons.

In order to make a copy, they must first get the original.  Not many people would be prepared for all the work involved ... and fewer still would have access to the oriiginals to make the copy from.

Dont know if there are many foundries on the Algarve, but someone working at such a place would be able to make copies without any trouble at all.  And at no appreciable expence


Anyone know of any foundries on the Algarve?