The sad mantra about neglect

[faithlilly]

We dont know the circumstances Faith

Currently, in this country and obviously at OC, architects have to ensure that the railings are built with a certain maximum gap between the rails and the top rail has to be a certain minimum height.  That is so that a child could not slip between them and people will not topple over them. 

Crossland, with Symington and Garveigh, was an owner of OC and we are told that Crossland, an architect, designed OC.  A difficult problem with all the steeply sloping fround, but seems he made a damned good job of it in virtually every respect, not sure about all the alleyways tho.


Faith, we simpy do not know the circumstances in other countries, so cannot judge whether the examples you offer are pertinent.


When were you suggesting it happened?   What time of the day?  Dark or light?



From that balcony, with the trees and bushes freshly clipped as contemporary photos show, Madeleine could have seen her mum and dad without any climbing.  No need to climb.

Why didn't she yell them?  From our experiences with a 50 metre garden, they would have heard her

And the big question is? 
Would a four year old have the foresight and willingness to close the patio door behind her?


You know, there is nothing to indicate anything like this happened.  Where the dogs indicated, it could have been the spot where a previous OC occupant , drunk, vomitted over the railing.  Could have been a convenient spot for a drunken, or overfilled reveller to do a quick p**, out of sight. 

So many things it could have been.  Nothing at all forensically to back it, and the dogs marking means nothing without the forensic bit.


I think not

As I said before, I think this is one hypothesis upon another hypothesis and very flaky.




Interesting to hear your ideas tho.   Keep them coming

It is obvious from the photographs posted already ( where are the ones mentioned by you ? ) that, with the aid of a chair, Madeleine would have been able to climb the railings.

As to the vegetation being low enough at the time for Madeleine to see her parents with climbing, that is simply not true and as for her yelling, perhaps she did but with the distances involved, the noise in the tapas and the clear tarpaulin surrounding the bar no one heard.

As to the patio door being closed on Gerry's visit, we only have Gerry's word for that.

Further Eddie does not alert to vomit or urine so that couldn't possibly explain his alert in the flowerbed.

[Benice]

I quoted someone else as you are more than well aware.

As to abuse that lies well within the normal parameters of 'certain' Mccann supporters.

As to 'harm',  what a load of cobblers. How do you know that she come to no physical harm ?

Do you know something we don't ?

Show us the evidence that she has either come to physical harm or is dead.  The McCanns know that both are a possibility but just like Kerry Needham who will also know the same - until they are shown the evidence they are not going to accept it and are going to carry on looking for their child.    If you don't understand that - then that is your problem not theirs.

[faithlilly]

Show us the evidence that she has either come to physical harm or is dead.  The McCanns know that both are a possibility but just like Kerry Needham who will also know the same - until they are shown the evidence they are not going to accept it and are going to carry on looking for their child.    If you don't understand that - then that is your problem not theirs.

Common sense and statistics suggest that there is a greater chance of Madeleine being dead than alive. Of course if the parents weren't involved it is their right to hope for an outcome that flies in the face of those statistics but it is rather strange and unhealthy for individuals with no family ties to deny categorically that truth.

[Benice]

Common sense and statistics suggest that there is a greater chance of Madeleine being dead than alive. Of course if the parents weren't involved it is their right to hope for an outcome that flies in the face of those statistics but it is rather strange and unhealthy for individuals with no family ties to deny categorically that truth.

Sorry but you've lost me Faith.....what do you mean plz?

[stephen25000]

Show us the evidence that she has either come to physical harm or is dead.  The McCanns know that both are a possibility but just like Kerry Needham who will also know the same - until they are shown the evidence they are not going to accept it and are going to carry on looking for their child.    If you don't understand that - then that is your problem not theirs.

Since you believe she was abducted, how can you possibly say she has come to no harm ?

By your belief she was snatched from her family and you would call that, 'no physical harm' ?

Paedophiles are being put up for blame again and you call that 'no physical harm' ?

Meanwhile if she is dead, as I believe as the result of an accident, then she certainly came to physical harm.

Then we have the classic from Mr. Mitchell....................


Clarence Mitchell: "I believe Kate and Gerry are not responsible for Madeleine's death"

[Redblossom]

I think anyone with half a brain would realise that the McCanns are saying there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any physical harm, or that she is dead.   Surely you cannot believe they don't know that pyschological damage will have been caused.

I see you are still abusing posters for having a different opinon to yours.

The exact words they have always used, taken from video footage, are these:

There is no  (and/or a scrap or shred of)  evidence she has come to

- any harm
- any serious harm
- any significant harm

They never mentioned  the word physical,but its all there in the first example, which goes to show her abduction in their mind did not cause harm, if you want to play with words, theres your answer, and even if they believe ahe was taken by a childless couple, that still, could never be true


As for the falling over the balcony discussion, this is entirely possible, it happens to children all the time, as do countless other accidents. There is nothing to say this could not have happened. Or that she had a fall backwards after climbing on a chair.  The cadaver dog signalled right there on the verandah/balcony. He did for a reason, it remains a possibility.The cadaver scent in the parents bedroom may have accumulated there from the direct outside source. Speculation but possible.
 

[sadie]

It is obvious from the photographs posted already ( where are the ones mentioned by you ? ) that, with the aid of a chair, Madeleine would have been able to climb the railings.

why should she, when she could see them? 

As to the vegetation being low enough at the time for Madeleine to see her parents with climbing, that is simply not true and as for her yelling, perhaps she did but with the distances involved, the noise in the tapas and the clear tarpaulin surrounding the bar no one heard.

Why dont you measure out 50 metres yourself and whilst chatting see if you can hear your child shouting you.  I have told you repeatedly that we could, without any trouble, in our garden, where we had a 50 metre stretch.  As you can see from videos, Madeleine was not a shrinking violet and she had a good loud voice.


Now could she see without climbing, or not?



From the other side of the pool. this shows where the Tapas 9  sat.   It is my understanding that  X marks the spot.  THe brown roofed building next door is the tapas bar, where they DID NOT sit.
We sat in the next plastic glazed section to the left, at the very edge of the picture.

Many photographs that have been published as the "view the Mccanns had" were, in actual fact, taken from the area to the very right of the picture ... and gave an altogether false view..





From apartment 5A's balcony this shows almost the same view.  The photo is taken from in front of the patio window..

Greenery grows extremely quickly in PT (?westerly winds bringing rain in from the Atlantic + warm sushine, I guess).  At the time of the abduction, from contemporaray photographs we can see that the greenery had just been cut back.  This photo must have been taken a little while later.cos everything is growing larger again and the view is getting a little restricted

To explain the photo

The white part of the building sticking out to the RH side of the picture is the back end of Kate and Gerrys bedroom

You will see the white walls going across the photo.  these are the walls of the alleyway that ran between the flats and the Tapas section.

Behind them you will see a little of the eastern end of the  pool.  IImmediately behind the pool is the outside tapas restaurant.  We sat in the LH section, by the tree, which appears to be  growing up in front of it..  The brown building immediately behind the round bush is the Tapas Bar.  Kate and Gerry were NOT in there.
Kate and Gerry sat in the middle section, which starts adjacent to our section and ends at the round bush just before the brown building (Tapas bar) . 

Their view would be better than shown in this photograph cos the hedges had just been trimmed, but it would not be quite as good as ours.



IMO, had Madeleine come out to look for her Mum and Dad, she would have stood right where this photo was taken from, cos she could see them from there.





And another view taken, it seems, from the balcony across the road, as  featured in "Sadies theory"

See how well the bushes are trimmed back?



Why dont you measure out 50 metres yourself and whilst chatting see if you can hear your child shouting you.  I have told you repeatedly that we could, without any trouble, in our garden, where we had a 50 metre stretch.  As you can see from videos, Madeleine was not a shrinking violet and she had a good loud voice.

As to the patio door being closed on Gerry's visit, we only have Gerry's word for that.

I know you guys disbelieve everything all the Brits say, especially kate and Gerry who you seem  to actually enjoy hurting as much as you can. 
It is quite vindictive the way that you keep making all the Brits liars, just to try and make Kate and Gerry guilty.   And just to prove Amaral right, a man who is twice proven a liar in the PT courts and who got the Hey-ho from his job, because of his incompetent handling of this case. 

But sorry I believe the Brits over Amaral every time.

[AnneGuedes]

The exact words they have always used, taken from video footage, are these:

There is no  (and/or a scrap or shred of)  evidence she has come to

- any harm
- any serious harm
- any significant harm

They never mentioned  the word physical,but its all there in the first example, which goes to show her abduction in their mind did not cause harm, if you want to play with words, theres your answer, and even if they believe ahe was taken by a childless couple, that still, could never be true


As for the falling over the balcony discussion, this is entirely possible, it happens to children all the time, as do countless other accidents. There is nothing to say this could not have happened. Or that she had a fall backwards after climbing on a chair.  The cadaver dog signalled right there on the verandah/balcony. He did for a reason, it remains a possibility.The cadaver scent in the parents bedroom may have accumulated there from the direct outside source. Speculation but possible.

As Faithlilly reckons, one can understand the McCanns cultivate illusions with their "no evidence of harm" argument. But it's not understandable that people without ties to this family argue the same, unless they believe in Santa Claus.
Even the fairy tale of loving new parents who find Madeleine left at a corner by the mean ones pursued by the PJ would be a horrible shock for a child of that age.
I told it already, my mum was sick and I was left, not yet 4, with friends of my parents I hardly knew. My father had to pick me up the following day : I hadn't slept, I coudn't eat nor drink nor cry, I felt at the bottom of misery.
Tears still come when I think of it.

There's a hole down the wall for evacuating balcony's rain waters towards the flower bed.

[sadie]

As Faithlilly reckons, one can understand the McCanns cultivate illusions with their "no evidence of harm" argument. But it's not understandable that people without ties to this family argue the same, unless they believe in Santa Claus.
Even the fairy tale of loving new parents who find Madeleine left at a corner by the mean ones pursued by the PJ would be a horrible shock for a child of that age.
I told it already, my mum was sick and I was left, not yet 4, with friends of my parents I hardly knew. My father had to pick me up the following day : I hadn't slept, I coudn't eat nor drink nor cry, I felt at the bottom of misery.
Tears still come when I think of it.

There's a hole down the wall for evacuating balcony's rain waters towards the flower bed.

How strange.  The hole cant be very big then, cos virtually the whole balcony is covered by Mrs Fenns balcony. it seems from this image and also from GEarth.

See how well trimmed back the bushes are?

[stephen25000]

How strange.  The hole cant be very big then, cos virtually the whole balcony is covered by Mrs Fenns balcony. it seems from this image and also from GEarth.

See how well trimmed back the bushes are?

You can use Google Earth til the cows come home, buit it doesn't prove abduction.

[faithlilly]

why should she, when she could see them? 

Why dont you measure out 50 metres yourself and whilst chatting see if you can hear your child shouting you.  I have told you repeatedly that we could, without any trouble, in our garden, where we had a 50 metre stretch.  As you can see from videos, Madeleine was not a shrinking violet and she had a good loud voice.


Now could she see without climbing, or not?



From the other side of the pool. this shows where the Tapas 9  sat.   It is my understanding that  X marks the spot.  THe brown roofed building next door is the tapas bar, where they DID NOT sit.
We sat in the next plastic glazed section to the left, at the very edge of the picture.

Many photographs that have been published as the "view the Mccanns had" were, in actual fact, taken from the area to the very right of the picture ... and gave an altogether false view..





From apartment 5A's balcony this shows almost the same view.  The photo is taken from in front of the patio window..

Greenery grows extremely quickly in PT (?westerly winds bringing rain in from the Atlantic + warm sushine, I guess).  At the time of the abduction, from contemporaray photographs we can see that the greenery had just been cut back.  This photo must have been taken a little while later.cos everything is growing larger again and the view is getting a little restricted

To explain the photo

The white part of the building sticking out to the RH side of the picture is the back end of Kate and Gerrys bedroom

You will see the white walls going across the photo.  these are the walls of the alleyway that ran between the flats and the Tapas section.

Behind them you will see a little of the eastern end of the  pool.  IImmediately behind the pool is the outside tapas restaurant.  We sat in the LH section, by the tree, which appears to be  growing up in front of it..  The brown building immediately behind the round bush is the Tapas Bar.  Kate and Gerry were NOT in there.
Kate and Gerry sat in the middle section, which starts adjacent to our section and ends at the round bush just before the brown building (Tapas bar) . 

Their view would be better than shown in this photograph cos the hedges had just been trimmed, but it would not be quite as good as ours.



IMO, had Madeleine come out to look for her Mum and Dad, she would have stood right where this photo was taken from, cos she could see them from there.





And another view taken, it seems, from the balcony across the road, as  featured in "Sadies theory"

See how well the bushes are trimmed back?



Why dont you measure out 50 metres yourself and whilst chatting see if you can hear your child shouting you.  I have told you repeatedly that we could, without any trouble, in our garden, where we had a 50 metre stretch.  As you can see from videos, Madeleine was not a shrinking violet and she had a good loud voice.


I know you guys disbelieve everything all the Brits say, especially kate and Gerry who you seem  to actually enjoy hurting as much as you can. 
It is quite vindictive the way that you keep making all the Brits liars, just to try and make Kate and Gerry guilty.   And just to prove Amaral right, a man who is twice proven a liar in the PT courts and who got the Hey-ho from his job, because of his incompetent handling of this case. 

But sorry I believe the Brits over Amaral every time.

Sadie, why do you write such long posts over such simple matters. Are you hoping the reader will just give up through boredom half way through ?

The bare facts are that it is entirely possible that Madeleine was involved in an accident that involved climbing on the the balcony railings. We have no real idea how high the foliage at the front of the balcony railings was at the time or if Madeleine could see over it ( if you have a absolutely contemporary photo I'd be glad to see it ). Between Madeleine and her parents there was foliage, a garden, a path, more foliage, a pool and a plastic tarpaulin. Further there was the noise of people talking  in the tapas and perhaps music. Wind direction may also have played a part.

Bottom line is Madeleine could have indeed called for her parents but they simply didn't hear.

( BTW sadie I'm British just like you )

[Redblossom]

Sadie wrote

I know you guys disbelieve everything all the Brits say, especially kate and Gerry who you seem  to actually enjoy hurting as much as you can. 
It is quite vindictive the way that you keep making all the Brits liars, just to try and make Kate and Gerry guilty.   And just to prove Amaral right, a man who is twice proven a liar in the PT courts and who got the Hey-ho from his job, because of his incompetent handling of this case. 

But sorry I believe the Brits over Amaral every time.
 8-)(--)

 

[Mr Moderator]

The Madeleine calling to her parents suggestion is a myth.  Any parent will know that should an almost 4-year-old even manage to open a sliding patio door and walk out onto a balcony they are most unlikely to close the door again.  Neither the McCanns nor Matthew Oldfield found the patio door ajar.  Another myth debunked unfortunately.

[sadie]

You can use Google Earth til the cows come home, buit it doesn't prove abduction.

I accept that Stephen, but it sure blows a hole in the theory that, ?was it, Faith suggested, of Madeleine using a chair to try and see her  parents.



Instead of always knocking, Stephen, how about you coming up with something that progresses our thinking?

[sadie]

From up the page
Faith

Sadie, why do you write such long posts over such simple matters. Are you hoping the reader will just give up through boredom half way through ?

The bare facts are that it is entirely possible that Madeleine was involved in an accident that involved climbing on the the balcony railings. We have no real idea how high the foliage at the front of the balcony railings was at the time or if Madeleine could see over it ( if you have a absolutely contemporary photo I'd be glad to see it ). Between Madeleine and her parents there was foliage, a garden, a path, more foliage, a pool and a plastic tarpaulin. Further there was the noise of people talking  in the tapas and perhaps music. Wind direction may also have played a part.

Bottom line is Madeleine could have indeed called for her parents but they simply didn't hear.

You blanked them out in your responses, but as you will see below, I am just answering your questions. 

Thoroughly


Don't you like a thorough and analytical approach?
===============================================



« Reply #142 on: Today at 12:42:19 AM »
Quote from: Faithlilly on July 31, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
 

It is obvious from the photographs posted already ( where are the ones mentioned by you ? ) that, with the aid of a chair, Madeleine would have been able to climb the railings

.

why should she, when she could see them? 


Quote from: Faithlilly on July 31, 2013, 11:12:08 AM

As to the vegetation being low enough at the time for Madeleine to see her parents with climbing, that is simply not true and as for her yelling, perhaps she did but with the distances involved, the noise in the tapas and the clear tarpaulin surrounding the bar no one heard.

Why dont you measure out 50 metres yourself and whilst chatting see if you can hear your child shouting you.  I have told you repeatedly that we could, without any trouble, in our garden, where we had a 50 metre stretch.  As you can see from videos, Madeleine was not a shrinking violet and she had a good loud voice.




Now could she see without climbing, or not?



From the other side of the pool. this shows where the Tapas 9  sat.   It is my understanding that  X marks the spot.  THe brown roofed building next door is the tapas bar, where they DID NOT sit.
We sat in the next plastic glazed section to the left, at the very edge of the picture.

Many photographs that have been published as the "view the Mccanns had" were, in actual fact, taken from the area to the very right of the picture ... and gave an altogether false view..





From apartment 5A's balcony this shows almost the same view.  The photo is taken from in front of the patio window..

Greenery grows extremely quickly in PT (?westerly winds bringing rain in from the Atlantic + warm sushine, I guess).  At the time of the abduction, from contemporaray photographs we can see that the greenery had just been cut back.  This photo must have been taken a little while later.cos everything is growing larger again and the view is getting a little restricted

To explain the photo

The white part of the building sticking out to the RH side of the picture is the back end of Kate and Gerrys bedroom

You will see the white walls going across the photo.  these are the walls of the alleyway that ran between the flats and the Tapas section.

Behind them you will see a little of the eastern end of the  pool.  IImmediately behind the pool is the outside tapas restaurant.  We sat in the LH section, by the tree, which appears to be  growing up in front of it..  The brown building immediately behind the round bush is the Tapas Bar.  Kate and Gerry were NOT in there.
Kate and Gerry sat in the middle section, which starts adjacent to our section and ends at the round bush just before the brown building (Tapas bar) . 

Their view would be better than shown in this photograph cos the hedges had just been trimmed, but it would not be quite as good as ours.



IMO, had Madeleine come out to look for her Mum and Dad, she would have stood right where this photo was taken from, cos she could see them from there.





And another view taken, it seems, from the balcony across the road, as  featured in "Sadies theory"

See how well the bushes are trimmed back?



Why dont you measure out 50 metres yourself and whilst chatting see if you can hear your child shouting you.  I have told you repeatedly that we could, without any trouble, in our garden, where we had a 50 metre stretch.  As you can see from videos, Madeleine was not a shrinking violet and she had a good loud voice.

Quote from: Faithlilly on July 31, 2013, 11:12:08 AM

As to the patio door being closed on Gerry's visit, we only have Gerry's word for that.

I know you guys disbelieve everything all the Brits say, especially kate and Gerry who you seem  to actually enjoy hurting as much as you can. 

It is quite vindictive the way that you keep making all the Brits liars, just to try and make Kate and Gerry guilty.

And just to prove Amaral right, a man who is twice proven a liar in the PT courts and who got the Hey-ho from his job, because of his incompetent handling of this case. 


But sorry I believe the Brits over Amaral every time.