The sad mantra about neglect

[AnneGuedes]

The witness (Mrs Oldfield, 2nd statement) states that she sat more or less facing the back of the apartment and Mathew, on the side of the table, on her left. She does not know if, from that position, he could see the back door of the apartment where Madeleine was, but if this had been the case then he would only have been able to see the very top.
So no Madeleine on the balcony could be spotted and reciprocally Madeleine couldn't spot anyone in the Tapas. Hence climbing on a chair.

[Lyall]

Would be interested to know where she came from then


Psst.  Do you think it was kate in the Smiths sighting

I've no theory about where KM may have been before raising the alarm. But it is a possibility that's why she didn't simply just shout for help from the apartment.

More likely though she did shout and simply wasn't heard?

[AnneGuedes]

NO 4 year old would close the patio door behind them

Nobody said the contrary. She wouldn't have closed the patio door, intending to go back to her bed or her parents' bed. Don't argue that Mr McCann found the patio door closed, actually he doesn't mention that door but another, the mysteriously too much open bedroom door, a mystery that didn't worry him. Had Madeleine gone to the balcony she would have left open the bedroom door, don't you agree ?

[sadie]

Nobody said the contrary. She wouldn't have closed the patio door, intending to go back to her bed or her parents' bed. Don't argue that Mr McCann found the patio door closed, actually he doesn't mention that door but another, the mysteriously too much open bedroom door, a mystery that didn't worry him. Had Madeleine gone to the balcony she would have left open the bedroom door, don't you agree ?

I do agree, yes, but only had she gone to the balcony.  I don't believe she went there, cos the patio door was closed.

And there is absolutely NO reason to think that she needed a chair, or to climb up any way.  She could see without that.

The evidence is in the picture.

Why dont you drop it Anne?  It is getting silly now. 

[faithlilly]

Well if I was a bad mother, then despite that my daughter has grown into a very fine woman.

All I tell you is my experiences of having a garden 50 metres long and being out there and hearing my children when they called.  back door unlocked and sometimes sidegate unlocked too.

Take it or leave it!  One does not expect someone to come in and steal ones children.  Face facts please.

But good parents do recognise that there are certain situations that are dangerous for children and an unfamiliar, unsecured apartment with access to high balconies is one of those situations.

[Benice]

But good parents do recognise that there are certain situations that are dangerous for children and an unfamiliar, unsecured apartment with access to high balconies is one of those situations.

Faith IMO you talk as if it's a foregone conclusion that good parents never make a mistake.

A&E depts all over the country have a constant stream of children whose good parents did something - or failed to do something which resulted in their child having an accident - or even dying.    We don't persecute these parents and scream abuse at them  - we have nothing but sympathy for them because we all know that there is no such thing as a perfect parent.     Most of us are lucky and our mistakes do not result in any harm to our children  - but not everyone is.       

All the parents who adopted the listening method of baby monitoring and still went home with their children safe and sound after their holiday were the lucky ones - the McCanns were not.

We all know it's dangerous to leave small children in the bath on their own - and yet every year children drown in the bath because their loving, good parents made a mistake.

This total refusal by some people to allow the McCanns to be the same as every other parent and make mistakes like the rest of us is incomprehensible to me.     I just don't get it.
   



 

[faithlilly]

Faith IMO you talk as if it's a foregone conclusion that good parents never make a mistake.

A&E depts all over the country have a constant stream of children whose good parents did something - or failed to do something which resulted in their child having an accident - or even dying.    We don't persecute these parents and scream abuse at them  - we have nothing but sympathy for them because we all know that there is no such thing as a perfect parent.     Most of us are lucky and our mistakes do not result in any harm to our children  - but not everyone is.       

All the parents who adopted the listening method of baby monitoring and still went home with their children safe and sound after their holiday were the lucky ones - the McCanns were not.

We all know it's dangerous to leave small children in the bath on their own - and yet every year children drown in the bath because their loving, good parents made a mistake.

This total refusal by some people to allow the McCanns to be the same as every other parent and make mistakes like the rest of us is incomprehensible to me.     I just don't get it.
   



 

As you say many, many parents use the listening service while on holiday and many parents have admitted doing so since Madeleine disappeared but I have never, ever heard of one parent leaving their accommodation's door/patio doors unlocked especially when those doors had access to dangerously high balconies and steps, have you ?

This was not a mistake Benice. This was a couple making fast and loose with their children's safety in order to have some 'me' time with their friends.

[Rachel Granada]

No there IS NOT a 5 hour time gap.  The maximum is 35 minutes


Madeleine left the tapas bar after her tea at  just before 5.40pm (Kates May 6th statement)

Madeleine left the tapas bar after her tea at 5.30pm (Gerrys May 10th statement)
Kate was bathing the three children and getting them ready for bed when David arrived at 6.35/ 6.40.  He saw Madeleine and the twins dressed ready for bed. (Davids Rog statement part 2)
Kate was with the children until Gerry arrived back from Tennis, before 8 pm (Davids Rog statement and IIRC also Gerrys statement)

Kate and Gerry were with the children until they left for the tapas restaurant at 8.30pm
Matt made a listening check at about 9.00pm
Gerry returned from the Tapas restaurant and saw the children between 9.05 and 910pm
Jane Tanner, at 9.15 ish, saw bundleman and almost certainly Madeleine.  Even noticing the detail at the bottom of her pyjama trousers.
Matt made a visual check at about 9.25 pm, but unfortunately didn't want to go into the room - so only actually visually checked the twins.  The door was wider open than expected IIRC ... so seems the abduction had already taken place
Kate checked at 10.00pm and found Madeleine gone


The longest gap I can find is 35 minutes ... NOT 5 hours

Why make it up Red?

Thanks for that, Sadie.  I said 4.5 hour time-frame as I wanted to use only independent witnesses who saw Madeleine on the 3rd, to pre-empt any "Payne is lying", etc.  posts.  Your post is very interesting and makes the "window of opportunity" for any wrong-doing by the McCanns very slim indeed.

[AnneGuedes]

I have never, ever heard of one parent leaving their accommodation's door/patio doors unlocked especially when those doors had access to dangerously high balconies and steps, have you ?

This was not a mistake Benice. This was a couple making fast and loose with their children's safety in order to have some 'me' time with their friends.

I don't agree with that, Faithlilly. Had they foreseen (their daughter had indirectly advised them to, but they strangely didn't understand, which is for me one of the deepest mysteries of this disappearance) Madeleine waking up, searching in the flat, hearing some noise through the slightly open window-door, as the Portuguese call it, she was accustomed to use like a door, getting easily on the dangerous balcony and from there eventually to the street, had they imagined this they certainly wouldn't have left the patio door opened. No parent would.
Imo either they said for some reason the patio door was open whereas it was closed, or they seriously lack primary imagination.

[Benice]

As you say many, many parents use the listening service while on holiday and many parents have admitted doing so since Madeleine disappeared but I have never, ever heard of one parent leaving their accommodation's door/patio doors unlocked especially when those doors had access to dangerously high balconies and steps, have you ?

This was not a mistake Benice. This was a couple making fast and loose with their children's safety in order to have some 'me' time with their friends.

Because you've never heard of something doesn't mean it never happens.  People do go out and forget to lock doors, they leave keys under mats etc - (very handy if someone is watching).    This idea that no-one in the world only the McCanns have ever done the same as they did  - whether by accident or intentionally is just daft IMO.

Of course it was a mistake Faith.  They did not deliberately or maliciously put the children they adored in danger any more than the parents of children who drown in garden pools or in the bath or die in car accidents deliberately and knowingly caused those tragedies to happen.      But if you treat those parents the same as you treat the McCanns -  then in every instance you can make the same case against them as you do against the McCanns - because at the end of the day they were responsible and it was because of their actions, or lack of action that the tragedy happened. 

Thankfully most of us are far too busy feeling terribly sad for those parents to even want to add to their agony by starting up with the 'blame game', and that's because we know that as parents none of us can guarantee that we will never make a mistake ourselves.   We put it down to human error, and why the McCanns are not allowed by some people to be to be guilty of human error like everyone else is a mystery to me.         

           

[Rachel Granada]

For what it's worth, I don't agree with the McCanns childcare arrangements on the holiday.

But at the end of the day, it is none of my business what they chose to do, and I will not use their choices as a stick to beat them with. 

[John]

For what it's worth, I don't agree with the McCanns childcare arrangements on the holiday.

But at the end of the day, it is none of my business what they chose to do, and I will not use their choices as a stick to beat them with.

Most parents don't apparently and the many I have asked this question say the same.  That said however I place the ultimate blame squarely at the feet of Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resort.  They failed to warn the parents to be extra vigilant and effectively put their own commercial interests before the safety of their paying guests.

[Redblossom]

Are you in a muddle Anne?

Who said anything about the south bedroom?

The clear view that Madeleine had was as in the image.  THe building in the middle of the picture, immediately behind the pool is where Kate and Gerry sat. 



Madeliene could have see them from there, which is immediately in front of the patio windows, which she would have come out thru.

Do you understand?

She didn't come out tho, cos NO 4 year old would close the patio door behind them

Are you seriously suggesting a small child let alone an adult could see anyone inside that restaraunt and from all that distance, and in the dark? and reversely, anyone inside it, see or hear the other way?

Matt Oldfield

The question asked, he relates that, due to the large size of the whole group, comprising nine adults (four couple and FP's mother), the deponent and the others always occupied the same table because it was the only one that could handle so many people.

Asked, he relates that, from where that table was positioned the group would have sight of the apartments they were occupying.

Nevertheless, he admits that it was a tenuous sight considering the distance to the apartments (estimated as about 50 to 100 metres), and further, due to their vision being impaired by a transparent oilcloth [tarpaulin] that covered the area in which the tables were located.

Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block.

Martin Brunts video from 13.47

You can see the oilcloth and his view of the low visibility

 

Jo Moura, PI, investigated on the ground....No visual whatsoever

3.38

and again at 16.20

There are other references too.

BUMP, still waiting for an answer sadie

[Benice]

For what it's worth, I don't agree with the McCanns childcare arrangements on the holiday.

But at the end of the day, it is none of my business what they chose to do, and I will not use their choices as a stick to beat them with.

Well I wouldn't take children that young abroad in the first place.   Why put them to all the hassle of waiting around at airports and the plane journey, and maybe excessive heat when they arrive  etc etc -  when they're too young to know the difference between Bournemouth or Benidorm.    But do I think parents who do take toddlers and babies abroad are wrong or bad parents?     No - I just think they have different opinions to mine about where to take children on holiday.    As you say Rachel, it's their business.

[Rachel Granada]

Well I wouldn't take children that young abroad in the first place.   Why put them to all the hassle of waiting around at airports and the plane journey, and maybe excessive heat when they arrive  etc etc -  when they're too young to know the difference between Bournemouth or Benidorm.    But do I think parents who do take toddlers and babies abroad are wrong or bad parents?     No - I just think they have different opinions to mine about where to take children on holiday.    As you say Rachel, it's their business.

Very much so Benice -  each to their own.  The McCanns choices are their business alone.