Hindsight: Some posters just cannot get their heads around the concept.

[Lyall]

More silly smileys rather than information for readers.

Are you refusing to do so?

Or are you just playing a childish game?

No, I'm discussing with you, not providing information for "readers".

[Lyall]

I disagree. I think it is absolutely valid to identify the different mindsets regarding these issues in 2007 and 2013 and to point out that posting without recognition that you are doing so with the benefit of hindsight is self-defeating.

So you do think other parents left doors unlocked at night prior to 2007?

You appeared to deny it before.

[faithlilly]

I do not concede that at all. It was the normal practice of people who confront the situation of a missing child.

It was totally unreasonable and wrong, in my opinon, though for the police officers and dog handlers to pollute the crime scene. They were detached individuals who should have known better and it is a fact that the most serious compromises to the crime scene were done by them as recorded in the files.

From the PJ's final report :

'It should be emphasized that the entire apartment had been searched and rummaged by an undetermined number of people, with the contamination that it brings and the difficulty that it raises for the collection of residues.'

[gilet]

So you do think other parents left doors unlocked at night prior to 2007?

You appeared to deny it before.

I have no idea. I have never stated that they did.

Your question is simply a repeat of the question you posted previously which I have already replied to.

Your silly repetition, use of smileys, refusal to give information to readers etc. is very much not in the interest of genuine debate.

I wonder what your actual motive for making such repeat posts, posting smileys instead of information for me or readers etc. might actually be?

[John]

My own belief is that they were lured into a false sense of security at the resort, the blame for which I place firmly at the feet of Mark Warner and Ocean Club.   

There was a history of intruders and break-ins at Ocean Club Garden prior to the tapas 9 arrival and I believe that MW failed to warn their clients to be extra vigilant in the circumstances.

Given the frequency of the incidents extra security should have been put in place especially after dark.

[gilet]

From the PJ's final report :

'It should be emphasized that the entire apartment had been searched and rummaged by an undetermined number of people, with the contamination that it brings and the difficulty that it raises for the collection of residues.'

Quite. No specific mention of the McCanns or their friends.

A general comment which includes contamination from all who were in that apartment before the crime scene investigators arrived.

Don't you recall the specific problem of police dog hair contamination of the scene?

Trying to lay the entire blame at hands/feet of the McCanns and their friends when the report doesn't actually do that is tantamount to interfering with the evidence in my view.

[faithlilly]

Quite. No specific mention of the McCanns or their friends.

A general comment which includes contamination from all who were in that apartment before the crime scene investigators arrived.

Don't you recall the specific problem of police dog hair contamination of the scene?

Trying to lay the entire blame at hands/feet of the McCanns and their friends when the report doesn't actually do that is tantamount to interfering with the evidence in my view.

From the AG's archiving report :

'In the drama of the moment, nobody – parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel – was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes – apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code – thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.'

[gilet]

My own belief is that they were lured into a false sense of security at the resort, the blame for which I place firmly at the feet of Mark Warner and Ocean Club.   

There was a history of intruders and break-ins at Ocean Club Garden prior to the tapas 9 arrival and I believe that MW failed to warn their clients to be extra vigilant in the circumstances.

I very much agree with that comment. But I would add that the fact that back in 2007 the practice of visiting services was generally not uncommon in holiday resorts of all standards was also a factor in the decisions made.

It is wholly wrong in my view to neglect the importance of the benefit of hindsight when posting as we have a very different view now than was prevalent even just six years ago about these matters.

Knowing about those intruders now, knowing about the actual disappearance of Madeleine as we do now our opinions are very different to those of the people who turned up in what they perceived as the sleepy village of PDL back in 2007.

I am reminded of an occasion when I also visited such a village only in the late 1990's in Greece. I was shocked to find that doors were not locked or even closed most of the day in most of the houses while owners were out in the gardens or in the fields often some distance away. How much it felt like my childhood were in my town nobody closed doors. In fact we had a special curtain of coloured plastic strips for the front doorway in summer which hung in the open doorframe all day to allow in fresh air while keeping out at least some of the insects. When the McCanns visited PDL in this out of season period, perhaps they got a similar impression.

Without thought being given to such strong impressions, to such failures on the part of Mark Warner and the OC, to the prevailing climate of opinion, and most especially the fact that we all know better now due to hindsight etc. posts which glibly imply neglect and vindictively, in my opinion, try to hammer that idea home about the McCanns
being neglectful parents even after they have admitted their errors of judgement are at best very sad and at worst very nasty.

[Lyall]

I have no idea. I have never stated that they did.

Your question is simply a repeat of the question you posted previously which I have already replied to.

Your silly repetition, use of smileys, refusal to give information to readers etc. is very much not in the interest of genuine debate.

I wonder what your actual motive for making such repeat posts, posting smileys instead of information for me or readers etc. might actually be?

Motive is discussion. What else?

So if you're not sure if other parents may or may not have left doors unlocked prior to 2007 how can you assert those who say it was always wrong are using hindsight?

You need evidence that suggests prior to 2007 other parents also did it to be able to make that assertion.

[gilet]

From the AG's archiving report :

'In the drama of the moment, nobody – parents, friends of the parents, resort management and personnel – was cold and lucid enough to preserve the crime scene, preventing that rummaging and the consequent contamination of traces from happening, while it is common knowledge that it is any person's responsibility to preserve crime scenes – apart from a legal demand: article 171 number 2 of the Penal Process Code – thus avoiding that traces can be erased or altered, therefore the collectable evidence had already lost much of its indicative value. Hence the lack of evidential elements that were collected during that initial phase, so much so that the only latent fingerprints that were collected, with the number of elements that are necessary to perform a positive identification, were individualised as belonging to the missing child's mother and to a GNR officer (pages 885 and 1520), thus immediately rendering the collection of important data for the investigation inviable.'

And now for fairness and completeness, the report about the contamination by the dog handlers? Or would that not suit your purpose?

[AnneGuedes]

The others locked their patio and front doors every night.

It is common sense to secure a place when kids are left alone. They were supposed to sleep but had one woken up and started to cry, all three would have realized they were alone.
Had the planet known doctors' kids were left alone in an open flat, out of ear and eye shot, the blame would have fallen on the McCanns instead of money in the Fund.
They saved themselves from shame thanks to the broken shutters and walking predator fairy tale. Then Eddie arrived..

[Redblossom]

My own belief is that they were lured into a false sense of security at the resort, the blame for which I place firmly at the feet of Mark Warner and Ocean Club.   

There was a history of intruders and break-ins at Ocean Club Garden prior to the tapas 9 arrival and I believe that MW failed to warn their clients to be extra vigilant in the circumstances.

Given the frequency of the incidents extra security should have been put in place especially after dark.

Such as? It wasnt a hotel or walled complex.

[Redblossom]

It is common sense to secure a place when kids are left alone. They were supposed to sleep but had one woken up and started to cry, all three would have realized they were alone.
Had the planet known doctors' kids were left alone in an open flat, out of ear and eye shot, the blame would have fallen on the McCanns instead of money in the Fund.
They saved themselves from shame thanks to the broken shutters and walking predator fairy tale. Then Eddie arrived..

Thats about right. Though I dont think any fund was in their mind when they spread the broken shutters story.

[gilet]

It is common sense to secure a place when kids are left alone. They were supposed to sleep but had one woken up and started to cry, all three would have realized they were alone.
Had the planet known doctors' kids were left alone in an open flat, out of ear and eye shot, the blame would have fallen on the McCanns instead of money in the Fund.
They saved themselves from shame thanks to the broken shutters and walking predator fairy tale. Then Eddie arrived..

As I have pointed out it may now be common sense in cities, it may now be common sense in towns. It wasn't always thus. Mindsets about such matters do change.

And it wasn't even common sense in small quiet villages back in the late 90s and possibly even today isn't common sense in some places.

It is only with hindsight that we know it was such a bad decision in out-of-season May time PDL in 2007. It is only now that people are aware of the level of crime in that village and area. Those things were concealed from visitors at the time presumably to make the place look more attractive. I even remember a famous Portuguese poster on a McCann forum declaring that there was no crime against children in Portugal. Such mindsets were common even in 2008 never mind 2007 prior to the disappearance of Madeleine.

As for your speculation in the final paragraph of your post, that is all it is, your speculation and I don't agree with it. If the lack of forewarning of visitors had been explained, if distances had been accurately reported (even now I see elsewhere Luz is pretending the distances are far, far greater than they really are), if the quietness of the out-of-season resort had been described properly, if the regularity of the checking had been described etc. then I don't think what you are saying would have come to pass at all.


 

[faithlilly]

And now for fairness and completeness, the report about the contamination by the dog handlers? Or would that not suit your purpose?

The scene was already contaminated by the time the dog handlers arrived.

So your thoughts on the AG citing the McCanns and their friends as a contributory factor in the contamination of the apartment long before the GNR arrived ?