The suggestion that the kids may have been sedated issue.

[Chinagirl]

Not something I did, John, (co-sleeping), nor anyone I know, including my daughter.  Nor did I ever put my hand on a sleeping child to ensure that they were still breathing.

Because I had my children sleep in their own cots from the day I brought them home from the hospital, does this make me a bad or neglectful parent?  In the eyes of some I suppose it does ....

[Jean-Pierre]

Not something I did, John, (co-sleeping), nor anyone I know, including my daughter.  Nor did I ever put my hand on a sleeping child to ensure that they were still breathing.

Because I had my children sleep in their own cots from the day I brought them home from the hospital, does this make me a bad or neglectful parent?  In the eyes of some I suppose it does ....

+1 Chinagirl

Each of my children had a cot from day 1.  And regular routine (well, in theory at least).

But each to their own - there is no right or wrong way to bring up children, just what works for a particular family. 

[Albertini]

Well Let's look at what happened during that time that they did not wake from:

Window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
The door slamming shut,
Curtains blowing into the room,
Their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
Their mother rushing out screaming for help,
The entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
The Police investigating the scene,
Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
Both parents repeating this action and wailing
Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
The twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
Their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment.

Then you have statements from Kate and Fiona and the others saying they thought they had been drugged.

Now given Kate's and Fiona's medical experience you would think they would be familiar with the Ramsey Sedation Scale which is defined as:

The Ramsay Sedation Scale (RSS) was the first scale to be defined for sedated patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is. It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale

1   Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both

2   Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil

3   Patient responds to commands only

4   Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus

5   Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus

6   Patient exhibits no response

Now clearly the twins were at stage 6, why did they not demand as doctors that the twins were immediately taken to hopsital?

[Chinagirl]

Who was going to take them?  How were the parents in a position to "demand" anything?

This aspect has been discussed countless times on countless forums over the past six years and nobody has yet come up with a definitive answer because, quite simply, none of us were there, so no one can answer your absurd question - though I'm sure that won't stop you from expounding some absurd speculation!
 

[sadie]

Albertini

Quote
The Ramsay Sedation Scale (RSS) was the first scale to be defined for sedated patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is. It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale

1   Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both

2   Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil

3   Patient responds to commands only

4   Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus

5   Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus

6   Patient exhibits no response

and them you go on to assert that the twins were at Stage 6 .. as FACT

What a crass thing to post Albertini

That Ramsey Sedation Scale is clearly looking at people who are awake, NOT asleep, So it doesn't apply.


You could be right, but you could be wrong ... Just pure speculation ... nothing more



Personally I am inclined to think that some sedation had been slipped into a drink or food at teatime, or even a bit before.  That they had been sedated, in some way, at least Madeleine to some extent... and possibly the twins. 

BUT IT AINT A FACT. and the scale you mention is nonsence for anyone who is not awake.  Or so it seems ti me.


Remember, Madeleine was so tired that she had to be carrieed back fromm the Tapas at only 5.35/5.40pm .... and alll of them were too tired  to have their usual pre- bedtime play with the other kids ... so sedation does appear a likely option - but it AINT DACT


Your post, Albertini, is an example of how myths are started

[Albertini]

Who was going to take them?  How were the parents in a position to "demand" anything?

Dead simple. When the police arrived you either say to them, or to the staff to ask the police if you feel you are struggling with the language barrier, "we are trained doctors and we believe the twins have been drugged or sedated. Please call an ambulance."

They are doctors for heavens sake. I don't know why you think they would have been incapable of asking for an ambulance to come.

This aspect has been discussed countless times on countless forums over the past six years and nobody has yet come up with a definitive answer because, quite simply, none of us were there, so no one can answer your absurd question - though I'm sure that won't stop you from expounding some absurd speculation!

Excuse me but why is it absurd to ponder why trained doctors and anesthetists no less, should not, having discovered one child missing, use their professional training and knowledge of the Ramsey scale to determine the twins needed urgent medical attention given their lack of responsiveness?

Looking at the statements provided then and since and taking into account their medical backgrounds it was either negligent of them (as parents as well as doctors) in not requesting an ambulance or there was at that time something preventing them from requesting medical assistance. Which then leads on to more searching questions.

If you feel this has all been done to death over the last 6 years (which appears to be a bit of a running theme in your posts) may i ask why  you continue to post on this forum about this case?

I was led to believe you were one of the more respected supporter's of the family however i find your recent posts to myself and others to be both condescending and patronising.

Either you want to take part in the debate in the proper manner this forum aspires to or you simply leave these discussions alone.

[Albertini]

and them you go on to assert that the twins were at Stage 6 .. as FACT

What a crass thing to post Albertini

That Ramsey Sedation Scale is clearly looking at people who are awake, NOT asleep, So it doesn't apply.


You could be right, but you could be wrong ... Just pure speculation ... nothing more


Personally I am inclined to think that some sedation had been slipped into a drink or food at teatime, or even a bit before.  That they had been sedated, in some way, at least Madeleine to some extent... and possibly the twins. 

BUT IT AINT A FACT. and the scale you mention is nonsence for anyone who is not awake.  Or so it seems ti me.


Remember, Madeleine was so tired that she had to be carrieed back fromm the Tapas at only 5.35/5.40pm .... and alll of them were too tired  to have their usual pre- bedtime play with the other kids ... so sedation does appear a likely option - but it AINT DACT


Your post, Albertini, is an example of how myths are started

"Crass" & "Myths". Two of the favourite words of the Mccann supporters.

The twins did not respond to the noise in the apartment nor to human touch which is point 5 on the scale.

To say that the scale doesn't apply because they were asleep is absurd and simply wrong. At that level of sedation you would appear asleep and you certainly wouldn't be able to differentiate between natural sleep and sedation.

In fact the Ramsay scale has 3 levels of awake (levels 1-3) and 3 asleep levels (4-6).

So it patently does apply and indeed that is how myths start when you attempt to rewrite the Ramsay scale to suit your argument.

All the group at one time or another said they were sedated, so it is not a "[ censored word ]" simply making it up.

If we accept they were sedated we look at the Ramsey scale to see to what level. Clearly given all the information about what went on and the fact they couldn't be roused by noise or touch points to number 6, doesn't it?

Which then leads on to the questions about why they wouldn't seek medical help there and then.

[Albertini]

The Ramsay Sedation Scale is used to measure different levels of sedation in medical patients. Of the various sedation scales used in anesthesiology, the Ramsay Sedation Scale has been one of the most widely adopted since its introduction in 1974. The scale monitors stages of sedation using a six-level scale—level one representing the least amount of sedation and six the most. The Ramsay Sedation Scale is divided into two parts: levels one through three monitor waking levels, and levels four through six monitor sleeping levels.

Of the waking levels, level one represents the most awake, with patients displaying a combination of being restless, anxious and agitated. Level two patients are more peaceful, patient and cooperative. Level three patients are the least responsive while still retaining consciousness, responding only to commands.

Of the sleeping levels, level four represents the least asleep, with patients able to quickly respond to a light tap or loud noise. Level five patients respond sluggishly. Level six patients are completely sedated, unable to respond to any stimulus.

Dr. Michael A.E. Ramsay, an anesthesiologist who became president of the Baylor Research Institute, developed the Ramsay Sedation Scale during a clinical study that monitored the various sedation levels of patients using a sedative called alphaxalone-alphadolone, or Althesin. The study attempted to optimize levels of sedation in various patients, with satisfactory levels ranging between two and five. The results of the study were published in the British Medical Journal, in an article titled "Controlled Sedation with Alphaxalone-Alphadolone."

[Mr Gray]

Well Let's look at what happened during that time that they did not wake from:

Window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
The door slamming shut,
Curtains blowing into the room,
Their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
Their mother rushing out screaming for help,
The entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
The Police investigating the scene,
Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
Both parents repeating this action and wailing
Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
The twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
Their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment.

Then you have statements from Kate and Fiona and the others saying they thought they had been drugged.

Now given Kate's and Fiona's medical experience you would think they would be familiar with the Ramsey Sedation Scale which is defined as:

Now clearly the twins were at stage 6, why did they not demand as doctors that the twins were immediately taken to hopsital?

As a parent I can assure you that young children who are extremely tired, as they often were when totally exhausted after a days playing on holiday, childrens club ,pool, playground etc, can fall into a very deep sleep. I have known my children to be impossible to rouse having fallen to sleep late at night. They would be deemed 6 on the Ramsay scale but the Ramsay scale is not applicable in this scenario. I find the twins sleeping nothing out of the ordinary.

[Jean-Pierre]

Agree Davel.  One of mine was the same - when tired slept very deeply and was impossible to wake.  If one tried, they would fall back asleep immediatley.  One of the others was a very light sleeper.

I think the problem is that some posters here pronounce with authority, having gained their profound knowledge of all things medical and legal from, er, Wikipeadia. 

The Ramsay scale is really not applicable outside a hospital setting, and particularly not in these circumstances.  But hey - when it comes to beating the McCanns any stick will do, even a fake one. 

It "keeps hope alive".

[Benice]

Dead simple. When the police arrived you either say to them, or to the staff to ask the police if you feel you are struggling with the language barrier, "we are trained doctors and we believe the twins have been drugged or sedated. Please call an ambulance."

Once again all said with hindsight.   The McCanns were in a terrible state of anxiety and terror and yet you expect them to be capable of  thinking calmly and logically.    You are also expecting them to behave how YOU think they should have behaved.   Why is that?   They reacted in the way the situation affected them not other people.   There is no right or wrong way to react to extreme shock.   It affects you how it affects you - full stop - you can't pick and choose what your reaction is going to be.

Unless you have been in the same situation you cannot know for sure how you would have reacted.  The nearest you can get is to only THINK you know.

[faithlilly]

Once again all said with hindsight.   The McCanns were in a terrible state of anxiety and terror and yet you expect them to be capable of  thinking calmly and logically.    You are also expecting them to behave how YOU think they should have behaved.   Why is that?   They reacted in the way the situation affected them not other people.   There is no right or wrong way to react to extreme shock.   It affects you how it affects you - full stop - you can't pick and choose what your reaction is going to be.

Unless you have been in the same situation you cannot know for sure how you would have reacted.  The nearest you can get is to only THINK you know.

We are told by Kate herself that she raised her concerns that the twins had been sedated with the police on the night so why not demand an ambulance at that time ?

[Benice]

We are told by Kate herself that she raised her concerns that the twins had been sedated with the police on the night so why not demand an ambulance at that time ?

Because that was the extent of her reaction at the time.   Once again you are expecting her to do what YOU think she should have done - and also with the benefit of hindsight  which she did not have.   Kate had no way of knowing what the police would do with the info she gave them - and she had her missing daughter uppermost in her mind at the time.   She would not be thinking clearly.    We know that by the end of the night the police had done nothing to check on the twins  but she didn't know that was going to be the case until after it happened.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Albertini]

Agree Davel.  One of mine was the same - when tired slept very deeply and was impossible to wake.  If one tried, they would fall back asleep immediately.  One of the others was a very light sleeper.

I think the problem is that some posters here pronounce with authority, having gained their profound knowledge of all things medical and legal from, er, Wikipeadia. 

The Ramsay scale is really not applicable outside a hospital setting, and particularly not in these circumstances.  But hey - when it comes to beating the McCanns any stick will do, even a fake one. 

It "keeps hope alive".

I unlike the majority of the group present on that night am not a medical professional. However in a situation where a child has gone missing one would expect a member of the group to question, using their medical knowledge, why the twins weren't waking up with everything going on around them.

The Ramsay scale is applicable and is used by doctors as the de facto standard for determining sedation levels when someone is sedated or suspected of being so, the location is irrelevant.

Kate, a former anaesthetist hereself, i believe was of the opinion straight away that they had been sedated, yet never used her medical training or requested an ambulance. How odd.

And what an odd question to ask on the 5th May about the PJ having any evidence that the twins were sedated.

Why not simply take the twins to the nearest hopsital and let it be determined there?

You do not have to be a medical professional to ask highly relevant questions relating to the doctors there on that evening not using the recognised process for determining sedation when they thought it was strange the twins were sleeping so heavily, given an abductor had allegedly been in the apartment.

To suggest it is a "fake" stick is ludicrous, it is highly relevant and to date unexplained why they didn't perform these checks, call an ambulance and then 2 days later ask if the PJ had any evidence that the twins were sedated.

A valid theory can justifiably be purported using this information along the lines of the twins were indeed sedated, the parents and possibly the group knew it at the time and they did not want the authorities to find out about it.

Now you will not agree with the theory because you do not believe the parents were involved but it is a valid theory nonetheless, that alas, without a confession can never be proven given the time elapsed.

[Benice]

I unlike the majority of the group present on that night am not a medical professional. However in a situation where a child has gone missing one would expect a member of the group to question, using their medical knowledge, why the twins weren't waking up with everything going on around them.

The Ramsay scale is applicable and is used by doctors as the de facto standard for determining sedation levels when someone is sedated or suspected of being so, the location is irrelevant.

Kate, a former anaesthetist hereself, i believe was of the opinion straight away that they had been sedated, yet never used her medical training or requested an ambulance. How odd.

And what an odd question to ask on the 5th May about the PJ having any evidence that the twins were sedated.

Why not simply take the twins to the nearest hopsital and let it be determined there?

You do not have to be a medical professional to ask highly relevant questions relating to the doctors there on that evening not using the recognised process for determining sedation when they thought it was strange the twins were sleeping so heavily, given an abductor had allegedly been in the apartment.

To suggest it is a "fake" stick is ludicrous, it is highly relevant and to date unexplained why they didn't perform these checks, call an ambulance and then 2 days later ask if the PJ had any evidence that the twins were sedated.

A valid theory can justifiably be purported using this information along the lines of the twins were indeed sedated, the parents and possibly the group knew it at the time and they did not want the authorities to find out about it.

Now you will not agree with the theory because you do not believe the parents were involved but it is a valid theory nonetheless, that alas, without a confession can never be proven given the time elapsed.

It not unusual for toddlers to sleep through the most horrendous noise.   Have you never attended a wedding reception or 18th birthday party etc etc  where the ear splitting disco is blaring out and seen toddlers peacefully sleeping through it all in their buggies having worn themselves out joining in the celebrations.

The difficulties which  the parents would confront by taking the twins to a hospital themselves have already been pointed out.    It is not as simple as it first looks.