Author Topic: For Albertini ...  (Read 117649 times)

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Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #180 on: August 15, 2013, 12:02:22 PM »
Interesting to note that Albertini has declined to answer two questions raised yesterday by davel and me.  Perhaps - hopefully - he has realised how erroneous is his contention that the archiving summary stated that the McCanns had "failed to demonstrate their innocence."  Repeatedly Albertini has asserted that this is what the AG stated in his summary.  Not so.  Here, yet again, are the relevant paragraphs from the summary:

 Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.


Despite the laboured English of the above translation, the AG clearly states: "We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos."  Note the preposition "to," not "by."  This is the crux of the whole matter.

As has been manifestly pointed out in this thread and several others on this subject, in a democratic legal system no one is ever required to "prove their innocence."  Whether a suspect subject to a police investigation, or an accused at trial, one retains the presumption of innocence until a verdict is handed down in court.

This matter should now, finally, be put to bed.
 

No not all. As i stated yesterday i have family and work commitments at the moment so i'm not on with the same frequency as previously.

My points are not incorrect at all. You and others of a similar persuasion consistently state that you do not have to "prove innocence" yet none of you attempt to explain why, if that is the case, it is in a report signed off by the AG of Portugal?

You are right that the language is laboured but your assertion that the use "to" implies a different meaning to the use of proving their innocence is wholly false.

What it means of course is that the failure for the group to comply with request for a reconstruction damaged the Mccann's as it failed to prove their innocence.

That does not change the fact that irrespective of the group's reasons for not attending the bottom line is at the end of the incomplete investigation the McCann's had failed to prove their innocence.

Plus of course we have the second use of the term in the report which makes no mention of the cancelled reconstruction as a proof of innocence:

Quote
The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.

The matter should not be put to bed until you accept the AG's report and the blindingly unambiguous statements that the McCann's failed to prove their innocence to the investigation.

Remember this is not my interpreatation of different words, this is exactly what the AG report said. If you don't understand why it was said and what it means i suggest you contact the AG's office in Portugal to ask them to explain it to you.

It clearly has a basis of viability, for if it did not, then it would not have gone in the AG's report.

You may squawk as much as you like about it not being right or "legal" but it is in there and nothing you will say on this thread will change that fact.

Offline south of the river

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #181 on: August 15, 2013, 01:32:51 PM »
sorry for me it is just semantics - you can interpret the AG report  in any way to suit any POV. The painful reality is that the PJ didn't manage to solve anything - apart from Murat and the McCann's they had no other suspects - they found no meaningful forensics of any kind and the case is still a complete mystery

If people find some sort of meaning in the minutiae of the report so be it. It doesn't change anything about finding out what happened .

Maybe we never will and this will just be one of these cases that  just doesn't get solved . People have waited 20 years or more before a lead appears Peter Tobin buried two of his victims in his garden in the early 90's and their bodies never found until he was jailed 15 years later and police began to look again

Until this crime is solved then maybe the McCann's  will always have to bear the fact that many people still suspect them - and debates like this about the AG report and what he meant just fuels the fire.

For me until the couple are charged and found guilty then they are innocent in law and that is all that counts  everything else is just opinion and froth

Offline Eleanor

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #182 on: August 15, 2013, 01:53:51 PM »
sorry for me it is just semantics - you can interpret the AG report  in any way to suit any POV. The painful reality is that the PJ didn't manage to solve anything - apart from Murat and the McCann's they had no other suspects - they found no meaningful forensics of any kind and the case is still a complete mystery

If people find some sort of meaning in the minutiae of the report so be it. It doesn't change anything about finding out what happened .

Maybe we never will and this will just be one of these cases that  just doesn't get solved . People have waited 20 years or more before a lead appears Peter Tobin buried two of his victims in his garden in the early 90's and their bodies never found until he was jailed 15 years later and police began to look again

Until this crime is solved then maybe the McCann's  will always have to bear the fact that many people still suspect them - and debates like this about the AG report and what he meant just fuels the fire.

For me until the couple are charged and found guilty then they are innocent in law and that is all that counts  everything else is just opinion and froth

Thank you for that.  And well said.  It is virtually impossible to precisely translate anything that has been said unless questioned in Court.
The Attorney General appears to have said that Madeleine is more likely dead.  But then in Court he said that his opinion was 50/50%.  So no real opinion at all.  Which is precisely as it should be.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #183 on: August 15, 2013, 02:04:19 PM »
I don't really know where to start with albertini because he just has so many errors in his knowledge. we will start here though..


Quote from: south of the river on August 14, 2013, 09:06:06 AM

The only way that innocence or guilt is 100% proved is by a trial and by a jury of your peers

Albertini replies..



Correct and not in dispute.

it's not correct. A court never finds an accused innocent, just not guilty. The court errs on the side of the accused and operate on the principle that they would rather see a small amount of guilty people go free than an innocent person found guilty. A court finding of not guilty does not mean 100% innocent. Albertini needs to understand this before he talks about proving innocence.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #184 on: August 15, 2013, 02:05:15 PM »
I don't really know where to start with albertini because he just has so many errors in his knowledge. we will start here though..


Quote from: south of the river on August 14, 2013, 09:06:06 AM

The only way that innocence or guilt is 100% proved is by a trial and by a jury of your peers

Albertini replies..



Correct and not in dispute.

it's not correct. Albertini is wrong again. A court never finds an accused innocent, just not guilty. The court errs on the side of the accused and operate on the principle that they would rather see a small amount of guilty people go free than an innocent person found guilty. A court finding of not guilty does not mean 100% innocent. Albertini needs to understand this before he talks about proving innocence.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 02:07:04 PM by davel »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #185 on: August 15, 2013, 02:15:10 PM »
From Blacks Law Dictionary


.
What is VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY?


a verdict declaring the case is not proven against the defendant. It does not mean he is innocent.
.

Law Dictionary: What is VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY? definition of VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY (Black's Law Dictionary) http://thelawdictionary.org/verdict-of-not-guilty/#ixzz2c2jzJIJT

Offline Lace

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #186 on: August 15, 2013, 02:33:03 PM »
The point is the Portuguese police did not prove the McCann's were guilty either.

If not proven to be guilty then they are innocent in the eyes of the law.

Offline DCI

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Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #187 on: August 15, 2013, 02:38:46 PM »
A follow up to my earlier post.

When I was checking through the successive Penal Process Codes, I noticed that one of the key changes was the amount of time one could spend in pre-trial detention. It's irrelevant in this case, but I still found the 2000 Code jaw-dropping.

An interesting paper here by the Lisbon Network of Judicial Professions (Council of Europe) on:

THEMIS 2008

ECHR CATEGORY

THE RIGHT TO A FAIR TRIAL
ANALYSIS OF THE CONDEMNATIONS OF THE PORTUGUESE STATE DUE TO THE VIOLATION OF ARTICLE 6 OF THE EUROPEAN CONVENTION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/cooperation/lisbonnetwork/themis/ECHR/Paper4_en.asp


They've clearly been under pressure to speed up the judicial process and the changes seem to be going in the right direction - at least for those stuck in prison awaiting trial.

And another paper on the right to a fair trial:

http://www.fairtrials.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Portugal-Source-Document.pdf


What I still find extraordinary is that unless there had been sufficient evidence to bring charges against Murat and if they hadn't decided to make the McCanns arguidos, the case would have been shelved in November 2007 - just 6 months later.

Very interesting read, Carana.

3.6 The Presumption of Innocence (consecrated in Nr 2 of Article 6)
From this principle, articulated with the principle in dubeo pro reo, and nulla penna sinne culpa, we may conclude other principles to take into account when referring to the criminal process, such as: Prohibition of the reversal of the burden of proof; preference for the decision of acquittal and not for filing the process; exclusion of fixing a penalty when the process is filed; no incidence of costs in the not-condemned defendants.
The presumption of innocence is also a manifestation of an equitable process and it binds the judge throughout the process. The judge shall reach a decision, with no influence from others and considering only the proofs in judgment, to decide on, according to them, the best verdict to make, concerning the question of culpability.

The Nr 3 of article 6 consecrates the rights of the accused:

a) To be informed as soon as possible, in an understandable register, about the nature of the accusation against him
b) To have time and the necessary means to prepare his defense properly
c) To defend himself, or have the assistance of the defense he chooses and, when he cannot afford to pay a lawyer, he has the right to have one when it is needed
d) To enquire the witnesses of accusation and obtain the questionnaire of the witnesses of defense in the same conditions as the accusation one
e) To be assisted by an interpreter, free of charge, when he cannot understand the language used in the process

You can't tell me the AG wasn't influenced by certain PJ >@@(*&)
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline Eleanor

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #188 on: August 15, 2013, 02:41:47 PM »

"You can't tell me the AG wasn't influenced by certain PJ."

I don't know about that.  But I do have my suspicions.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #189 on: August 15, 2013, 03:29:50 PM »
I don't really know where to start with albertini because he just has so many errors in his knowledge. we will start here though..


Quote from: south of the river on August 14, 2013, 09:06:06 AM

The only way that innocence or guilt is 100% proved is by a trial and by a jury of your peers

Albertini replies..



Correct and not in dispute.

it's not correct. Albertini is wrong again. A court never finds an accused innocent, just not guilty. The court errs on the side of the accused and operate on the principle that they would rather see a small amount of guilty people go free than an innocent person found guilty. A court finding of not guilty does not mean 100% innocent. Albertini needs to understand this before he talks about proving innocence.

They are found not guilty of the charges brought against the suspects. They are found innocent of the charges put before the court.

They are found, under law, innocent of those charges.

However If further charges are brought with more or new evidence or if there were found to be errors in the first trial then those are brought before the court and the system starts again.

DaveL, it's ok to Google stuff and copy and paste but at least have an understanding of what you are pasting first.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #190 on: August 15, 2013, 03:33:51 PM »
sorry for me it is just semantics - you can interpret the AG report  in any way to suit any POV. The painful reality is that the PJ didn't manage to solve anything - apart from Murat and the McCann's they had no other suspects - they found no meaningful forensics of any kind and the case is still a complete mystery

If people find some sort of meaning in the minutiae of the report so be it. It doesn't change anything about finding out what happened .

Maybe we never will and this will just be one of these cases that  just doesn't get solved . People have waited 20 years or more before a lead appears Peter Tobin buried two of his victims in his garden in the early 90's and their bodies never found until he was jailed 15 years later and police began to look again

Until this crime is solved then maybe the McCann's  will always have to bear the fact that many people still suspect them - and debates like this about the AG report and what he meant just fuels the fire.

For me until the couple are charged and found guilty then they are innocent in law and that is all that counts  everything else is just opinion and froth

No it's not semantics at all. It is crystal clear what the AG report said and indeed what i have been saying for the last 13 pages:

1) There was no evidence found against the Mccann's in the investigation.
2) The investigation was incomplete because of the refusal of the group to co-operate in the reconstruction.
3) The Mccann's did not prove their innocence to the investigation
4) All this is in the opinion of a Public Proescutor and carries no judicial weight.

The point of all this "semantics" as you call it is to counter the often held assumption that the Mccann's had been "cleared".

They have not been cleared by a court and you cannot be cleared by an investigation if you have failed to demonstrate your innocence, can you?

The correct summary of the report is that no evidence was found against the Mccann's but that they had not prven their innocence to the investigation.

Which is far removed from claiming, as some do, that they have been "cleared".

That's the point of this thread.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 03:37:42 PM by Albertini »

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #191 on: August 15, 2013, 03:34:45 PM »
The point is the Portuguese police did not prove the McCann's were guilty either.

If not proven to be guilty then they are innocent in the eyes of the law.

I have never said anything counter to that.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #192 on: August 15, 2013, 03:36:42 PM »
QUESTION FOR DAVEL

In your own words (not Googled) and without saying again that the most senior lawyer in Portugal is "an idiot" can you explain what the AG report meant when it said:

Quote
The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
Quote
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.

ferryman

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Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #193 on: August 15, 2013, 03:38:00 PM »

2) The investigation was incomplete because of the refusal of the group to co-operate in the reconstruction.

Wrong!

All points the (envisaged) reconstruction were intended to clarify were clarified by subsequent developments, such as analysis of telephone communications and corroboration of witness statements.

The reconstruction became and remains irrelevant.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #194 on: August 15, 2013, 03:45:53 PM »
2) The investigation was incomplete because of the refusal of the group to co-operate in the reconstruction.

Wrong!

All points the (envisaged) reconstruction were intended to clarify were clarified by subsequent developments, such as analysis of telephone communications and corroboration of witness statements.

The reconstruction became and remains irrelevant.

Really? Where does it say tha in the AG Report?

What i can see is:

Quote
Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.
 
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.