Sherlock. The psychological aspects of bundleman.

[Carana]

There's no try, DCI, and I pray you to interpret correctly iyo the "But I just thought it was" segment. In other words, what do you think she meant ?
Please show that your objective isn't to accuse posters to extract in order to mislead but to establish truth.

From the context of having the three others around her and seeing him on TV, etc., it sounds as if she then had a doubt as to whether it might have been him after all and decided to share it with Bob Small. The UK police are trained in witness memory recall and suggestibility issues.

More importantly, she apparently never did identify Murat in the van fiasco and having read her statements, I can't find anything that would indicate that she was anything but an honest and reliable witness, irrespective of whether the child she described was actually Madeleine or not.

So I have no idea what justifies his comment about Jane in his summary of key points that led to his team's conclusion:
Jane Tanner’s witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it.

[AnneGuedes]

So I have no idea what justifies his comment about Jane in his summary of key points that led to his team's conclusion:
Jane Tanner’s witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it.

How do you interpret Ms Tanner's "but I just thought it was" ?
Imo any police in the world would find Ms Tanner's sighting rather unreliable concerning the where and when.
She likely saw a man carrying likely a child. The man was walking like a robot, he didn't turn his head before crossing the street. His unusual way of carrying seems to indicate the child was either in a coma, very badly hurt or dead. Surely if Ms Tanner invented that sighting to be kind, in order to help the McCanns impose their theory, she couldn't have invented worse !

[Jean-Pierre]

How do you interpret Ms Tanner's "but I just thought it was" ?
Imo any police in the world would find Ms Tanner's sighting rather unreliable concerning the where and when.
She likely saw a man carrying likely a child. The man was walking like a robot, he didn't turn his head before crossing the street. His unusual way of carrying seems to indicate the child was either in a coma, very badly hurt or dead. Surely if Ms Tanner invented that sighting to be kind, in order to help the McCanns impose their theory, she couldn't have invented worse !

Anne, you are inventing stuff again. 

[Carana]

How do you interpret Ms Tanner's "but I just thought it was" ?
Imo any police in the world would find Ms Tanner's sighting rather unreliable concerning the where and when.
She likely saw a man carrying likely a child. The man was walking like a robot, he didn't turn his head before crossing the street. His unusual way of carrying seems to indicate the child was either in a coma, very badly hurt or dead. Surely if Ms Tanner invented that sighting to be kind, in order to help the McCanns impose their theory, she couldn't have invented worse !

As we can't hear what she actually said, and as the sentence isn't necessarily complete, there's no way of knowing whether "but I just thought it was..." meaning Murat, or whether she might have gone on to say "... significant to mention it."

[AnneGuedes]

As we can't hear what she actually said, and as the sentence isn't necessarily complete, there's no way of knowing whether "but I just thought it was..." meaning Murat, or whether she might have gone on to say "... significant to mention it."

Wishful thinking imo. But why not ? Anyhow she wasn't categorical, may be because she had to see Mr Murat's face. Besides I don't think that the fear to be abducted herself by the Spanish police wasn't helping either.

[Carana]

Wishful thinking imo. But why not ? Anyhow she wasn't categorical, may be because she had to see Mr Murat's face. Besides I don't think that the fear to be abducted herself by the Spanish police wasn't helping either.

It's not wishful thinking, as I presented both possibilities. My point being that listening to it might have have made it clearer, e.g., searching for words to finish a sentence or whether it was a definite end.

[Carana]

Personally, I'm not taking it for granted that Carolyn Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine at 21:15 or so. Unfortunately, her statement isn't in the files. He says she only had a vague recollection of it. Lots of people would have been calling out for Madeleine around an hour later, so it could just as easily have been that.

Something I find interesting in Steve's rog is he seems to be one of the few people who recall cars parked nearby.

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance". OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

DCF: Yes, and where you state that it was on GMTV.

SC:: Yes..

[AnneGuedes]

It's not wishful thinking, as I presented both possibilities. My point being that listening to it might have have made it clearer, e.g., searching for words to finish a sentence or whether it was a definite end.

Carana, but on which basis do you suppose Ms Tanner possibly didn't finish her sentence ?
I don't think the police officer would have left an unfinished sentence (high intonation), likely to be misunderstood.

[AnneGuedes]

Personally, I'm not taking it for granted that Carolyn Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine at 21:15 or so. Unfortunately, her statement isn't in the files. He says she only had a vague recollection of it. Lots of people would have been calling out for Madeleine around an hour later, so it could just as easily have been that.

Are you suggesting that she might have heard "Madeleine" (or some similar call) later, after 10 ?

[Carana]

Are you suggesting that she might have heard "Madeleine" (or some similar call) later, after 10 ?

I certainly find it possible. People were running around calling her name after 10 pm; a vague recollection - to me - means that nothing really stood out to situate it; and as her statement isn't in the files, it's actually her husband's recollection of her recollection.

[Carana]

Carana, but on which basis do you suppose Ms Tanner possibly didn't finish her sentence ?
I don't think the police officer would have left an unfinished sentence (high intonation), likely to be misunderstood.

Just reread that passage. She was interrupted as the officer finished the sentence, with which she agreed. So she did have a moment when she thought it was Murat, but that was after the van episode and when he'd just appeared on TV, surrounded by other people in the group who believed they'd seen him that night helping to translate.





4078 “No”.
Reply “But I just thought it was”.

4078 “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.
Reply “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”.

4078 “Yes”.
Reply “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Personally, I'm not taking it for granted that Carolyn Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine at 21:15 or so. Unfortunately, her statement isn't in the files. He says she only had a vague recollection of it. Lots of people would have been calling out for Madeleine around an hour later, so it could just as easily have been that.

Something I find interesting in Steve's rog is he seems to be one of the few people who recall cars parked nearby.

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance". OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

DCF: Yes, and where you state that it was on GMTV.

SC:: Yes..

Hello Carana,

If the Carpenters left the restaurant between 9.15 and 9.30, went straight to their apartment to put their children to bed and, as as stated above, went to bed themselves shortly afterwards, then unless they left their apartment again before going to bed, Mrs Carpenter must have heard Madeleine's name being called at the time she says. Is it recorded anywhere that she left the apartment again that night?

[Carana]

Hello Carana,

If the Carpenters left the restaurant between 9.15 and 9.30, went straight to their apartment to put their children to bed and, as as stated above, went to bed themselves shortly afterwards, then unless they left their apartment again before going to bed, Mrs Carpenter must have heard Madeleine's name being called at the time she says. Is it recorded anywhere that she left the apartment again that night?

I'm not aware that they left the apartment once they'd got back in. It seems they stayed in FP02 Ocean Club, but I'm not sure where that's located. If people were calling in the vicinity of where they were staying, she may have heard it whilst in the apartment, possibly even whilst dozing off.

On the other hand, perhaps she did hear something on their way home. Without seeing her statement, there's no way of knowing if the officer tried to jog her memory further or not, nor what she actually said.

[sadie]

Hello Carana,

If the Carpenters left the restaurant between 9.15 and 9.30, went straight to their apartment to put their children to bed and, as as stated above, went to bed themselves shortly afterwards, then unless they left their apartment again before going to bed, Mrs Carpenter must have heard Madeleine's name being called at the time she says. Is it recorded anywhere that she left the apartment again that night?

I agree with Sherlock

And also, it seems likely that bundleman came down the alleyway Aldeamente Ocean Club in order to circle back to where the little car park was with a getaway vehicle parked.  THe Carpenters had to cross that alleyawy, if I am understanding their semi circular route correctly, so were they very close by each other at some stage?

The above, of course depends on my general theory being correct about the get away vehicle being parked in that area

[Sherlock Holmes]

I agree with Sherlock

And also, it seems likely that bundleman came down the alleyway Aldeamente Ocean Club in order to circle back to where the little car park was with a getaway vehicle parked.  THe Carpenters had to cross that alleyawy, if I am understanding their semi circular route correctly, so were they very close by each other at some stage?

The above, of course depends on my general theory being correct about the get away vehicle being parked in that area

Why exactly would anyone be saying Madeleine's name, however?