Author Topic: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?  (Read 34079 times)

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Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2013, 11:11:27 PM »
 @)(++(* You should watch the ones ITV produced in 2007.

Offline Benice

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2013, 12:41:43 AM »
I have always thought that another good place to watch was along the alleyway between the apartments and the gardens. Between the two blocks of flats there is a walkway down to that alleyway.  Seemed a good spot to watch who was eating anyhow, cos the watcher could walk off inn a western, a northern or an eastern direction, if someone appeared.

Anyhow, I am leaving it there.  It is taking up too much of my time... and my eyes are not good.  Plenty to mull over.... anyway 

ETA   OK, Lyall, it can be Channel 4's, but Hoho chose to use it .... and it is disinformation.  Full Stop !


I've always thought that the unoccupied apartment 5c - two doors down from the McCanns was a brilliant place from which to observe.   Anyone in there could not only see across to the Tapas Restaurant from the back of the apartment, but also had a view of the carpark from the front bedroom window - and they were a few seconds walk away from the McCann's apartment.   Two British ladies noticed a couple of men on the patio of 5C some time before Madeleine was abducted although it would appear that their notifications to  the police of that were ignored.              I wonder how much attention was paid to that apartment by the PJ.   As far as I know no dogs were ever put in that apartment, or any forensics taken.    I'm happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong.




The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Luz

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2013, 03:15:05 AM »
After all these years I hoped that everyone knew that every apartment of the Ocean Club complex and those in the vicinity (more than 400) were thoroughly searched, almost everyone in the village, with the exception of the foreigners that meanwhile had to go on with their lives in their countries, and no immediate reason to be retained, just left their identification and contact.

I doubt that if a foreign child disappeared in a British village so much effort would have been employed as there was in this case. Thousands of people were interrogated, hundreds of PJ inspectors were assigned to the investigation, the navy with their several valences, the airforce, the firefighters, civil protection, GNR, university laboratories and the best scientific researchers, ex.pats, portuguese citizens,...there was an "army" on the ground at sea and in the air during the first weeks. Whenever I read articles questioning the work that was made I feel furious.

How dare you?!
There was a "battlefield" through which Mr and Mrs McCann kept on playing tennis and jogging, their parents, aunts, uncles and friends enjoying the warming sun of the Algarve and meanwhile giving interviews insulting the efforts made by those that cared... (sorry Adm)

Patio doors were not visible from the restaurant (as if that matters when you are behind a plastic protection that is not transparent enough to see the exterior), and the children's room were on the opposite side of the apartment...so, what is the importance of that?

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2013, 04:00:23 AM »

I doubt that if a foreign child disappeared in a British village so much effort would have been employed as there was in this case. Thousands of people were interrogated, hundreds of PJ inspectors were assigned to the investigation, the navy with their several valences, the airforce, the firefighters, civil protection, GNR, university laboratories and the best scientific researchers, ex.pats, portuguese citizens,...there was an "army" on the ground at sea and in the air during the first weeks. Whenever I read articles questioning the work that was made I feel furious.


Hello Luz, I agree with you that it is uncalled for to make sweeping, negative statements about a particular country or its justice system. It must be very trying reading such comments.

With regard to your suggestion that a foreign child in Britain would not receive as much police effort as Madeleine's case has in Portugal, I do however want to remind you of the 2001 case of a dead African boy found floating down the Thames in London.

To say that that case, concerning not a missing, blue eyed blond girl, but the unidentified, decapitated body of an African boy, was thoroughly investigated by the Metropolitan Police and Scotland Yard is an understatement.

Officers were sent across Europe; DNA experts to the Middle East; several trips made to various African countries to interview suspects and gather information from African universities; celebrities and politicians, including Nelson Mandela himself, employed by SY to assist. The investigation went on for several years - I believe until 2011 - no expense spared. I remember reading a few years ago that at one point it was calculated to be the most expensive case ever undertaken by the Metropolitan Police.

When British detectives met with with tribes people in West Africa to interview them - there is a youtube video of this somewhere - the locals could make head nor tail of why the British government would have cared to expend such effort and sums in the quest to establish the identity of a non-European national, already dead, and to find the perpetrators of the crime and punish them at the British taxpayer's expense.

In that case, there were no parents running marathons, courting wealthy benefactors, and pressuring government departments - the entire case revolved around the unknown identity of the victim -  yet incredible efforts were made.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 04:04:57 AM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline Angelo222

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2013, 02:26:14 PM »
A brill post Sherlock.  If we had a post of the day I would nominate it.    8@??)(
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Joanne

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2013, 02:30:42 PM »
Sherlock-Is this the case you meant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Eb5Tpunj5s
"Adam" is the name given to a young Nigerian boy whose torso was discovered in the River Thames, London on 21 September 2001. He is believed to have been between the ages of four and seven. The murder is believed to be linked to a ritual killing. Despite the use of forensic science, the Metropolitan Police Service have not caught the killer.

The torso was discovered on the afternoon of Friday, 21 September 2001, as it floated past the Tower of London towards Tower Bridge in Central London. A passer-by crossing the bridge had noticed an orange object in the water, and realising it was a body as it passed under the bridge, alerted the police. The Metropolitan Police sent its marine search unit to the scene, who recovered the torso further downstream. The body was found to be the torso of a young black child, the orange being a pair of shorts around the stumps of the legs.
The discovery of the torso shocked police, and prompted massive media coverage in the United Kingdom and around the world. The police named the body Adam in the absence of any positive identification.

There have been considerable developments in the case since the investigation began.

Initial investigations
Police soon realised after recovering only the torso, that the circumstances were unusual and not typical of a sex-related murder. It was initially suspected that the murder was a medicine murder. This type of killing involves the removal of body parts such as the ears or genitals. However Adam's genitals were not removed, and the police ruled out this theory.
Post mortem
 editbeta]A post-mortem was carried out on Adam's remains. This established from the amount of British food in Adam's stomach and pollen in his lungs that he had only been in the United Kingdom for a few days. A potion that contained ingredients used in West African ritual magic was also discovered in his stomach.
Nigerian link
Adam's bones were also analysed to see if it could determine his geographical origins. As everything a person eats bears the trace of the soil of where it was grown or reared, soil samples were compared to places around the world. Scientists determined from this that Adam originated in Nigeria.
Metropolitan police travelled to Nigeria and launched a campaign to track Adam's parents. Despite visiting elementary schools and looking at reported missing children in the region, there was no success.
Linked cases
In July 2002, a Nigerian woman arrived in the UK from Germany, claiming to have fled from a Yoruba cult that practised ritual murders. She claimed that they attempted to kill her son, and that she knew Adam was murdered in London by his parents. However, police searching her flat found orange shorts with the same clothing label as those found on Adam.

Surveillance of the woman's associates brought the police to another Nigerian, a man named Kingsley Ojo. Searching of Ojo's house found a series of ritual items, however none of the DNA on the items matched Adam's DNA. Ojo was charged with child trafficking offences and jailed for four years in 2004.

Developments in the case
Progress on the case has been considerable given the lack of evidence and the existence of only Adam's torso. However, the lack of dental records or face imagery has been a major block to solving the crime. Still, Metropolitan police believe the publicity surrounding the case has acted as a deterrent for further ritual crimes in the UK.

The police also note that Adam would never have been found if his body had washed out into the North Sea, which would have occurred only two turns of the tide after his discovery.

On 29 March 2011, it was discovered that the torso belonged to that of 6-year old, Ikpomwosa, after a TV-Crew managed to track down a woman who used to care for him in Germany, due to his parents being deported back to Nigeria. Mother of two, Joyce Osiagede had told ITV London Tonight that she handed the 6-year old to a man—reportedly named Bawa, who proceeded to take the child to London. Detectives have said that this is a 'major breakthrough.

In 2012, the BBC was contacted by Joyce Osiagede who declared that she was prepared to tell them everything she knew about the boy. Osiagede revealed that the Adam's real name was in fact Patrick Erhabor and not Ikpomwosa. She also identified Bawa as Kingsley Ojo and said that she had wrongly identified a photograph that had been circulating in the press as Patrick when it was in fact of a friend's living son.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_(unsolved_Thames_murder_case)

Offline Angelo222

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2013, 02:32:47 PM »
Another irresponsible view in this video of the Outside Tapas Restaurant.  In this case taken from a spot several apartments further west

The filming is very bad inside the Outside Tapas Restaurant, probably because of poor lighting inside.  It is difficult to judge how much this might have altered the view outside.

You are wrong yet again Sadie.  Martin Brunt was sat at the very spot in the restaurant where the McCanns and their friends were seated.  If you had bothered to look at the video you would have seen this.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline sadie

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2013, 04:06:51 PM »

I've always thought that the unoccupied apartment 5c - two doors down from the McCanns was a brilliant place from which to observe.   Anyone in there could not only see across to the Tapas Restaurant from the back of the apartment, but also had a view of the carpark from the front bedroom window - and they were a few seconds walk away from the McCann's apartment.   Two British ladies noticed a couple of men on the patio of 5C some time before Madeleine was abducted although it would appear that their notifications to  the police of that were ignored.              I wonder how much attention was paid to that apartment by the PJ.   As far as I know no dogs were ever put in that apartment, or any forensics taken.    I'm happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong.
I am a bit doubtful about that Benice because I dont think that flat had a window on the car park side.  I think that there was a lobby there and no outside wall to the North.  The lobby that most of the front doors acme off and the stairs ran from, I think.
I could be wrong tho and would be happy to be corrected.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2013, 04:51:53 PM »
Sherlock-Is this the case you meant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Eb5Tpunj5s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_(unsolved_Thames_murder_case)

That's the one, Joanne. A very interesting case with many lessons learned.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 05:20:04 PM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2013, 05:02:36 PM »
A brill post Sherlock.  If we had a post of the day I would nominate it.    8@??)(

Thanks, Mr Moderator

Offline sadie

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2013, 05:15:33 PM »
Hello Luz, I agree with you that it is uncalled for to make sweeping, negative statements about a particular country or its justice system. It must be very trying reading such comments.

With regard to your suggestion that a foreign child in Britain would not receive as much police effort as Madeleine's case has in Portugal, I do however want to remind you of the 2001 case of a dead African boy found floating down the Thames in London.

To say that that case, concerning not a missing, blue eyed blond girl, but the unidentified, decapitated body of an African boy, was thoroughly investigated by the Metropolitan Police and Scotland Yard is an understatement.

Officers were sent across Europe; DNA experts to the Middle East; several trips made to various African countries to interview suspects and gather information from African universities; celebrities and politicians, including Nelson Mandela himself, employed by SY to assist. The investigation went on for several years - I believe until 2011 - no expense spared. I remember reading a few years ago that at one point it was calculated to be the most expensive case ever undertaken by the Metropolitan Police.

When British detectives met with with tribes people in West Africa to interview them - there is a youtube video of this somewhere - the locals could make head nor tail of why the British government would have cared to expend such effort and sums in the quest to establish the identity of a non-European national, already dead, and to find the perpetrators of the crime and punish them at the British taxpayer's expense.

In that case, there were no parents running marathons, courting wealthy benefactors, and pressuring government departments - the entire case revolved around the unknown identity of the victim -  yet incredible efforts were made.
Thank you for reminding us Sherlock.  Good to know that SY pulled out all the stops there too.

Wonderful that Madeleines parents are still raising money for missing children, that influential people have backed them ...  and that they have the best that they can muster, SY, looking for her .... and for the perp.

Offline Brietta

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2014, 12:32:55 AM »
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.

Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?

There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.

So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant?
Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 10:24:05 PM by Mr Moderator »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2014, 12:39:53 AM »
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.

Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?

There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.

So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant?
Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?


Do you believe Madeleine even knew that her parents had  left her & her siblings alone to sleep, let alone told her where they were eating?

Offline Brietta

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2014, 12:53:07 AM »
Do you believe Madeleine even knew that her parents had  left her & her siblings alone to sleep, let alone told her where they were eating?

Absolutely not.

Nor do I think that she left the apartment of her own volition.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2014, 02:43:51 AM »
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.

Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?

There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.

So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant?
Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?
The risks of allowing children access to the balcony and of positioning furniture next to the railing are explained in one of the two safety stickers which were on  the lounge balcony door I can post the text if you are interested.

But yes that would have been the only way (without going out onto the streets) to attract attention of adults at the tapas.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 02:53:19 AM by pegasus »