The Jane Tanner surveillance of Robert Murat episode.

[stephen25000]

Is there a definitive answer to that question, Faith?  How do you know that 30 days is wrong?

Try some research in the area.

[Jean-Pierre]

Try some research in the area.

Faith claimed that Kate McCann was wrong in saying that scent remains detectable for 30 days. 

So I think it is up to Faith (or even your goodself) to come up with a reason why 30 days is inaccurate.  Over to you... 

[stephen25000]

Faith claimed that Kate McCann was wrong in saying that scent remains detectable for 30 days. 

So I think it is up to Faith (or even your goodself) to come up with a reason why 30 days is inaccurate.  Over to you...

No it isn't.

It is up to km to justify her ludicrous claim of 30 days.

Like I said you do need to do some research.

Meanwhile to give you an example of how long 'organic' remains linger. Relatively recently a paleontologist found D.N.A. fragments of a female T-Rex in a fossil in excess of 65 million years ago, along with residual cell structure and proteins of the animal in question. Not quite Jurassic Park, but a clear indication that organic remains 'linger.'

[Carana]

No it isn't.

It is up to km to justify her ludicrous claim of 30 days.

Like I said you do need to do some research.

Meanwhile to give you an example of how long 'organic' remains linger. Relatively recently a paleontologist found D.N.A. fragments of a female T-Rex in a fossil in excess of 65 million years ago, along with residual cell structure and proteins of the animal in question. Not quite Jurassic Park, but a clear indication that organic remains 'linger.'

Fascinating.

- Did dogs help to uncover this?

- Is the history of PdL known?

[stephen25000]

Fascinating.

- Did dogs help to uncover this?

- Is the history of PdL known?

No dogs involved as far as I know.

The fossils were not from pdl.

[Jean-Pierre]

No it isn't.

It is up to km to justify her ludicrous claim of 30 days.

Like I said you do need to do some research.

Meanwhile to give you an example of how long 'organic' remains linger. Relatively recently a paleontologist found D.N.A. fragments of a female T-Rex in a fossil in excess of 65 million years ago, along with residual cell structure and proteins of the animal in question. Not quite Jurassic Park, but a clear indication that organic remains 'linger.'

Interesting of course, but irrelevant to the matter in question.  In this case, there were no organic remains.

In simple terms, the two main constituents of "cadaver odour" are cadaverine and putrescine, which are diamine compounds.  formula NH2(CH2)5NH2.  They are Volatile Organic Compounds, (VOCs), which means that they have a low boiling point at ordinary room temperatures and pressures, and therefore give off vapour easily.  Which is why you can smell it. 

It also the reason why a trace of a VOC on its own (i.e. not accociated with the organic source, which will over time replenish the compound until it dries out) will evaporate.  If you think about a perfume - (another VOC) it will be quite strong when first applied and then will decay over time, becoming undetectable after a few hours or a couple of days. 

The smell will linger longer in damp, cool conditions which inhibit evaporation, and will decay quicker in warm or hot, dry conditions because it will evaporate more quickly.  After a period of time, the volatile elements will evaporate completely

So it follows that a fluid containing cadaverine and putrecine, with no associated organic carrier or source will evaporate over time, and this time will be affected by humidity and temperature.   So conditions in pdl during the summer period would not be conducive to long term survival.

So without an organic carrier it would appear that 30 days is pretty much the limit of "cadaver scent" being present. 

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=273&loc=ec_rcs#x291

[Carana]

No it isn't.

It is up to km to justify her ludicrous claim of 30 days.

Like I said you do need to do some research.

Meanwhile to give you an example of how long 'organic' remains linger. Relatively recently a paleontologist found D.N.A. fragments of a female T-Rex in a fossil in excess of 65 million years ago, along with residual cell structure and proteins of the animal in question. Not quite Jurassic Park, but a clear indication that organic remains 'linger.'

I haven't found anything to substantiate how long any remaining odour has been correctly attributed to the alerts of dogs, or the evidence of dog handlers, * related to a potentially deceased child, with an unknown post-death potential contamination period, in the absence of any physical remains, and which might have been discernible three months later in an apartment which had been visited and occupied by dozens of people after the event.

If such cases are widely known, I'd be interested in reading about them.

* ETA phrase modified to clarify.

[Jean-Pierre]

Never fear Carana, I am sure someone (Stephen, faith or albertini perhaps?)  will soon be along to supply a veritable cornucopia of such studies, soon.....   

[stephen25000]

Interesting of course, but irrelevant to the matter in question.  In this case, there were no organic remains.

In simple terms, the two main constituents of "cadaver odour" are cadaverine and putrescine, which are diamine compounds.  formula NH2(CH2)5NH2.  They are Volatile Organic Compounds, (VOCs), which means that they have a low boiling point at ordinary room temperatures and pressures, and therefore give off vapour easily.  Which is why you can smell it. 

It also the reason why a trace of a VOC on its own (i.e. not accociated with the organic source, which will over time replenish the compound until it dries out) will evaporate.  If you think about a perfume - (another VOC) it will be quite strong when first applied and then will decay over time, becoming undetectable after a few hours or a couple of days. 

The smell will linger longer in damp, cool conditions which inhibit evaporation, and will decay quicker in warm or hot, dry conditions because it will evaporate more quickly.  After a period of time, the volatile elements will evaporate completely

So it follows that a fluid containing cadaverine and putrecine, with no associated organic carrier or source will evaporate over time, and this time will be affected by humidity and temperature.   So conditions in pdl during the summer period would not be conducive to long term survival.

So without an organic carrier it would appear that 30 days is pretty much the limit of "cadaver scent" being present. 

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=273&loc=ec_rcs#x291

I really hate to disappoint you, but I have a degree in Chemistry and don't need to be told what I already know.

As to the 30 days, that is variable and not a simple limit.

We also, do not know under what conditions the body was stored, and the compounds you listed are the tip of the google iceberg.

[Jean-Pierre]

I really hate to disappoint you, but I have a degree in Chemistry and don't need to be told what I already know.

As to the 30 days, that is variable and not a simple limit.

We also, do not know under what conditions the body was stored, and the compounds you listed are the tip of the google iceberg.

As you have a degree in Chemistry, it should be a simple matter to provide relevant research studies to disprove the "30 day" comment made by Kate McCann in her book. 

If you had bothered to read, you will have noticed that I mentioned environmental factors and their influence on volatility.

Following the alerts by the dogs, could you just remind the forum what forensic material was actually found, and what the results of the forensic tests were? 

What body?  have I missed something?

[faithlilly]

Was the source not Blacksmith ?

No the source was that good friend of the McCanns, Kier Simmons.

[stephen25000]

As you have a degree in Chemistry, it should be a simple matter to provide relevant research studies to disprove the "30 day" comment made by Kate McCann in her book. 

If you had bothered to read, you will have noticed that I mentioned environmental factors and their influence on volatility.

Following the alerts by the dogs, could you just remind the forum what forensic material was actually found, and what the results of the forensic tests were? 

What body?  have I missed something?

You have stated 30 days.

Not me. You need to prove it.

So back it up, or withdraw it.

As to environmental factors, I'm more than well aware of those.

[Jean-Pierre]

You have stated 30 days.

Not me. You need to prove it.

So back it up, or withdraw it.

As to environmental factors, I'm more than well aware of those.

I dont need to prove anything.   

Kate McCann stated it in her book.  Faithlilly, a few posts back, said "Kate and her husband had access to the files, are highly intelligent individuals and had extensively researched the use of cadaver dogs, yet Kate still managed to state wrongly in her book that cadaver scent only lasted thirty days."

So I think it the  onus is on Faithlilly to come up with some evidence that to support her contention that Kate is wrong.  Or you, as you seem to have stepped in.

I am sure with your interest in this case and your degree in chemistry you can provide some evidence that Kate McCann is wrong...... or maybe you can't.  The ball is very firmly in your court now Stephen.   are you up to it?

[stephen25000]

I dont need to prove anything.   

Kate McCann stated it in her book.  Faithlilly, a few posts back, said "Kate and her husband had access to the files, are highly intelligent individuals and had extensively researched the use of cadaver dogs, yet Kate still managed to state wrongly in her book that cadaver scent only lasted thirty days."

So I think it the  onus is on Faithlilly to come up with some evidence that to support her contention that Kate is wrong.  Or you, as you seem to have stepped in.

I am sure with your interest in this case and your degree in chemistry you can provide some evidence that Kate McCann is wrong...... or maybe you can't.  The ball is very firmly in your court now Stephen.   are you up to it?

Oh yes you do.

You are quoting it as a fact, without any evidence whatsoever.

Now prove it. >@@(*&)

[Carana]

I really hate to disappoint you, but I have a degree in Chemistry and don't need to be told what I already know.

As to the 30 days, that is variable and not a simple limit.

We also, do not know under what conditions the body was stored, and the compounds you listed are the tip of the google iceberg.

That's helpful. Perhaps you could help me then:

I haven't found anything to substantiate how long any remaining odour has been correctly attributed to the alerts of dogs, or the evidence of dog handlers, related to a potentially deceased child, with an unknown post-death potential contamination period, in the absence of any physical remains, and which might have been discernible three months later in an apartment which had been visited and occupied by dozens of people after the event.

If such cases are widely known, I'd be interested in reading about them.