Was it really just like being in the garden while kids slept upstairs?.

[icabodcrane]

I think that is a difficult one.  There is no doubt in my mind that what happened WAS neglect - however, prosecutions are usually a last resort for Social Services.  There are other actions that can be taken such as parenting classes, the Child Protection Register etc.  And if you decide to remove children (in this case the twins), that leads to other very difficult decisions - in particular where the child(ren) will be placed, what your aim is in removing the children, how the ongoing contact with parents will be organised etc etc. . 

Just to add - I often read that the fact that the parents were not prosecuted means that there was not neglect.  This is absolutely not true. As I said, other actions can be taken instead of prosecution which is done very much as a last resort.  Incidentally I have sometimes gone over the speed limit but have not been prosecuted!! - does that mean that I was not, in fact speeding?

What do you think might have happened if the  'consequences'  of the McCann's childcare arrangements had been different,  do you think  ?

If,  for instance,  Amaral is correct when he says the child died in the apartment from an accident that occured whilst she was alone with her younger siblings 

Would the McCanns have been charged with negligence in those circumstances  ...   or even been charged with negligent homicide  (  involuntary manslaughter in British law  )  ? 

[John]

It would depend on the autopsy results.

[CPN]

I am aware that Portuguese and UK law are different - I was answering from the viewpoint of the legislation I worked under which was British.  Certainly in the Local Authorities I worked for, if we had heard of children being left in this way, action would have been taken. Indeed, I had 3 sisters in care when I first started who had been removed from their family  in very similar circumstances.   

I do not agree that being doctors made it no worse for the reasons I have given, which include the training which would have included the NSPCC and government guidelines on leaving children alone, and the fact that there was a very strong likelihood that any GP has had experience of children having accidents in the home.  And, to add, that a GP would be expected to report to the authorities here any child(ren) they knew of being left alone in that way

[Rachel Granada]

I am aware that Portuguese and UK law are different - I was answering from the viewpoint of the legislation I worked under which was British.  Certainly in the Local Authorities I worked for, if we had heard of children being left in this way, action would have been taken. Indeed, I had 3 sisters in care when I first started who had been removed from their family  in very similar circumstances.   

I do not agree that being doctors made it no worse for the reasons I have given, which include the training which would have included the NSPCC and government guidelines on leaving children alone, and the fact that there was a very strong likelihood that any GP has had experience of children having accidents in the home.  And, to add, that a GP would be expected to report to the authorities here any child(ren) they knew of being left alone in that way

What do you make of the Pontin's system of leaving children in chalets and a nanny cycling up and down listening for crying?  Do you think that these Pontins parents should be vilified?

[CPN]

What do you make of the Pontin's system of leaving children in chalets and a nanny cycling up and down listening for crying?  Do you think that these Pontins parents should be vilified?

Whether that system still exists I do not know.  If so, I would have great doubts about it. 

I do know that it existed many years ago and can only suggest that less was known about the dangers to children then, as indeed less was known about so many things that we take for granted these days.  But anyway, what others decide to do should be irrelevant - we are all responsible for our own children and need to take the decisions that are best for them and in their best interests, taking all factors into account.  I certainly never would have and never did leave my son alone like that when he was that age

[AnneGuedes]

I do not agree that being doctors made it no worse for the reasons I have given, which include the training which would have included the NSPCC and government guidelines on leaving children alone, and the fact that there was a very strong likelihood that any GP has had experience of children having accidents in the home.  And, to add, that a GP would be expected to report to the authorities here any child(ren) they knew of being left alone in that way

Do you think the McCanns knew that ? Do you think they really might have been scared to have problems to keep the twins, at least in a sort of probe time ?
I find this terrible and I do agree more with the Portuguese law.

[Redblossom]

No chance to spot anything said, among many others, Mr Jo Moura who was there for CBS "undercover".

Sorry anne missed ths post, yes, no visual whatsoever, and martin brunt proved it when he did his sky documentary too...... But, agan even if there WAS any visual, it is madness to suggest one or some or  all of them would have kept their eyes peeled on that flat..in case...id there was the thought of *in case* of anythng they would not have left them unless they took a risk..never heard such nonsense

just like i said on another thread

Even if you had an uninteruppted view of the patio door, bearing in mind that according to the interviews (if you believe them) a check was done at 930pm, it would have been dark and if there are a group of people chatting, dining and drinking et al, what are the chances of someone watching the said door every second of every minute? It would take seconds for someone to nip in and out of that door.

I have asked this plainly common sense and logical question umpeteen times, strangely enough always ignored, because its plain stupid and in denial to even suggest they did that
 

Because if they were that worried they never would have left the babies on their own but taken them with them like most families and left them go sleep in their prams when they got tired...laughable at best

[CPN]

Do you think the McCanns knew that ? Do you think they really might have been scared to have problems to keep the twins, at least in a sort of probe time ?
I find this terrible and I do agree more with the Portuguese law.

I'm sorry, I do not understand your question (the second one)  Re the first one, I have already pointed out that they would know the guidelines from their training and would be expected to report children they knew of in that position - and so yes, of course, I think they knew that.  And I do not find it terrible at all - I find the damage that can be done to children by neglect, intentionally or not, far worse.

[AnneGuedes]

Whether that system still exists I do not know.  If so, I would have great doubts about it. 

I do know that it existed many years ago and can only suggest that less was known about the dangers to children then, as indeed less was known about so many things that we take for granted these days.  But anyway, what others decide to do should be irrelevant - we are all responsible for our own children and need to take the decisions that are best for them and in their best interests, taking all factors into account.  I certainly never would have and never did leave my son alone like that when he was that age

That's true. But we, post-modern people, require over security. How do we best protect our children ? Closing the windows or facing them with the danger of an open window ?
I suddenly remember my little boy in front of an open window, I handed him a toy and said "throw it out and see what happens". Then we went downstairs..

[Redblossom]

That's true. But we, post-modern people, require over security. How do we best protect our children ? Closing the windows or facing them with the danger of an open window ?
I suddenly remember my little boy in front of an open window, I handed him a toy and said "throw it out and see what happens". Then we went downstairs..

Well if you are WITH them when the windows are open its a bit different to leaving them alone with a window open to where there is access to a balcony to fall over etc etc etc

or deciding to leave a window/patio door open so your three yr old can go out in the night to LOOK for you if she finds youre not there if she wakes up....awful....unless Maddie knew where they would be? but still, at the dead of night? No, computer says no

[AnneGuedes]

I'm sorry, I do not understand your question (the second one)  Re the first one, I have already pointed out that they would know the guidelines from their training and would be expected to report children they knew of in that position - and so yes, of course, I think they knew that.  And I do not find it terrible at all - I find the damage that can be done to children by neglect, intentionally or not, far worse.

It is yes terrible, CPN, have you had 3 little children trying to get your attention in the same moment ?
The McCanns love their children, there's no doubt about that, they have no imagination, there's no doubt about that as well.
Second question : I was wondering whether the idea they could have problems about the twins with the social services had determined them to pretend Madeleine was abducted.

[CPN]

It is yes terrible, CPN, have you had 3 little children trying to get your attention in the same moment ?
The McCanns love their children, there's no doubt about that, they have no imagination, there's no doubt about that as well.
Second question : I was wondering whether the idea they could have problems about the twins with the social services had determined them to pretend Madeleine was abducted.

Actually, I was a teacher also, including a nursery teacher, so I have had many more that 3 young children trying to get my attention at the same moment!!  I'm not sure how relevant that is, however.

RE the second question, well, I do not know of course.  The abduction scenario was put forward while the McCanns were in Portugal, of course, so any possible action by the UK Social Services was still only a theory at that point

[AnneGuedes]

The abduction scenario was put forward while the McCanns were in Portugal, of course, so any possible action by the UK Social Services was still only a theory at that point

If they were aware, as you suggest, of the consequences in the UK of leaving 3 little ones alone, then they could fear the Portuguese law was alike.

[CPN]

If they were aware, as you suggest, of the consequences in the UK of leaving 3 little ones alone, then they could fear the Portuguese law was alike.

True - and much of the action immediately after the disappearance of Madeleine strikes me as efforts to make the best of a bad situation.  But I don't know, any more that you or anyone else does. 

Incidentally, I have no particular theory as to what happened to Madeleine - I am very much a "don't know"er.  My main concern about the case is the neglect, as I see it, and the lack of acknowledgement of the McCanns that they did anything wrong in leaving the children as they did, instead making excuses, which I find very dangerous.

[AnneGuedes]

Sure. Living the kids alone is one thing, blaming everybody but themselves is another.