Was it really just like being in the garden while kids slept upstairs?.

[icabodcrane]

I have asked you twice for your reasons for being so keen that the patio door was the way in ... and why you think that I am wrong about the front door.  You have to have a reason to be so determined about it.  That reason is all I am asking. 


Please your considered response ... not asking me again. 

Your reasons are what would be interesting now.  Surely that is not asking too much?

It's very late  and I've had a few beers

There is every chance that I will be a bit too frank with you,  and in the morning I will read back and think,   "oh Icabod,  why were you so mean   ?" 

So I'll logout  instead

goodnight sadie  ...  sleep well 

[Lyall]

I asked you to provide evidence that I am wrong.   Please do that.

You stated that I was wrong ... and by implication a liar.


Have you been there when the bushes were newly cut ... and sat and looked hard to see what you could see of the patio windows?

Did you sit there for an hour and never take your eyes off the apartment, not even for a minute (time enough according to your theory).

[Lyall]

I asked you to provide evidence that I am wrong.   Please do that.

You stated that I was wrong ... and by implication a liar.


Have you been there when the bushes were newly cut ... and sat and looked hard to see what you could see of the patio windows?

You being absurd Sadie, and stubborn. Of course nobody would sit with a group of friends and instead of interacting stare at a distant point all night.

But of course you know best. Better than the witnesses from the night. Better than the police.

[Lyall]

I asked you to provide evidence that I am wrong.   Please do that.

You stated that I was wrong ... and by implication a liar.


Have you been there when the bushes were newly cut ... and sat and looked hard to see what you could see of the patio windows?

You said it yourself, you "sat and looked hard". You really think they'd be doing that for a solid hour?

[sadie]

You said it yourself, you "sat and looked hard". You really think they'd be doing that for a solid hour?

I was assessing exactly what I could see, to remember it accurately.  I was also noticing the rest of the Tapas restaurant

Of course they didn't sit and stare for an hour.

However, had a new oblong of light shown at the Mccanns patio door, or movement happened on the street light flooded patio, there was a very good chance one of these alert people would have noticed.


Why are you so keen that the only way in was via the patio door, when the front door is so obvious?  There has to be a reason.

[icabodcrane]

I was assessing exactly what I could see, to remember it accurately.  I was also noticing the rest of the Tapas restaurant

Of course they didn't sit and stare for an hour.

However, had a new oblong of light shown at the Mccanns patio door, or movement happened on the street light flooded patio, there was a very good chance one of these alert people would have noticed.


Why are you so keen that the only way in was via the patio door, when the front door is so obvious?  There has to be a reason.

There is   evidence  that the patio doors may have been used   ...  that evidence is the McCanns saying they were left unlocked   (  so no break-in or forced entry necessary  ) 

There is no  evidence  at all that a front door key was used

You may imagine that a key was used  ...   but there is simply no physical evidence to support it

[LagosBen]

There is   evidence  that the patio doors may have been used   ...  that evidence is the McCanns saying they were left unlocked   (  so no break-in or forced entry necessary  ) 

There is no  evidence  at all that a front door key was used

You may imagine that a key was used  ...   but there is simply no physical evidence to support it

The door was faulty read the statements of the occupants a couple of weeks prior to the McCanns. The area was hidden and dark.The front door would seem the obvious entry and exit point -hence the window opened to check movements outside imo.

[sadie]

It's very late  and I've had a few beers

There is every chance that I will be a bit too frank with you,  and in the morning I will read back and think,   "oh Icabod,  why were you so mean   ?" 

So I'll logout  instead

goodnight sadie  ...  sleep well

Thankyou Icabod.  Went to bed at almost 4am and up at 8am as always to inject.  Had three bouts of cramp in what was left of the night.  Otherwise pretty good .  Have caught up a bit now tho.

And you?  Bet you slept like a log after beers?  Hope so



This is the fourth time of asking.  Would you be so kind as to give me your reasons for being so keen that the patio door was the way in ... and why you think that I am wrong about the front door.  You have to have a reason to be so determined about it.  That reason is all I am asking. 


Please your considered response ... not asking me again. 

Your reasons are what would be interesting now.  I think you will agree that I have done my part ... and you have promised.

Look forward to your response

sadie x


ETA:  Just read your very recent post.

Are you honestly telling me that the reason you have given is the reason you are SO convinced?

That you cant consider a bit further?

How's about the two burglaries in the immediately preceding weeks via the front door?  No damage to the doors, so a key obvioosly used.

What about the lighting illuminatiing the patio and the new oblong of quite strong light had the patio door been entered and the curtain pulled back

How about Amaral stating that no abductor would have entered via the front door as it was too close to the group, and overlooked, at only 50 metres?

What you have said is, sorry to say, really weak.  Something more robust if you dont mind Icabod.   

Either that, or please refrain from undermining my thoughts and observations ... that have far more strength .... and likelyhood

[icabodcrane]

The door was faulty read the statements of the occupants a couple of weeks prior to the McCanns. The area was hidden and dark.The front door would seem the obvious entry and exit point -hence the window opened to check movements outside imo.

It does not matter  how  'obvious'  the front door may appear to some to be  the point of entry  (  using a key )  ...  there is simply no  evidence  to support the suggestion

The evidence we  DO   have is that the window was opened and the shutter raised,  and if it were not for the fact that forensic examination rules the window out as point of entry  it would certainly be the  most  'obvious' 

The only other evidence is that the patio doors had been left unlocked 

[LagosBen]

It does not matter  how  'obvious'  the front door may appear to some to be  the point of entry  (  using a key )  ...  there is simply no  evidence  to support the suggestion

The evidence we  DO   have is that the window was opened and the shutter raised,  and if it were not for the fact that forensic examination rules the window out as point of entry  it would certainly be the  most  'obvious' 

The only other evidence is that the patio doors had been left unlocked

Has Amaral ever commented on the fact that the front door could be opened by the cleaners easily, even though the previous occupants said they had locked it from the inside. In fact apart from a video showing one guy with a credit card at the front door, was much in the way of forensics actually carried out on that front door?

[icabodcrane]

Thankyou Icabod.  Went to bed at almost 4am and up at 8am as always to inject.  Had three bouts of cramp in what was left of the night.  Otherwise pretty good .  Have caught up a bit now tho.

And you?  Bet you slept like a log after beers?  Hope so



This is the fourth time of asking.  Would you be so kind as to give me your reasons for being so keen that the patio door was the way in ... and why you think that I am wrong about the front door.  You have to have a reason to be so determined about it.  That reason is all I am asking. 


Please your considered response ... not asking me again. 

Your reasons are what would be interesting now.  I think you will agree that I have done my part ... and you have promised.

Look forward to your response

sadie x


ETA:  Just read your very recent post.

Are you honestly telling me that the reason you have given is the reason you are SO convinced?

That you cant consider a bit further?

How's about the two burglaries in the immediately preceding weeks via the front door?  No damage to the doors, so a key obvioosly used.

What about the lighting illuminatiing the patio and the new oblong of quite strong light had the patio door been entered and the curtain pulled back

How about Amaral stating that no abductor would have entered via the front door as it was too close to the group, and overlooked, at only 50 metres?

What you have said is, sorry to say, really weak.  Something more robust if you dont mind Icabod.   

Either that, or please refrain from undermining my thoughts and observations ... that have far more strength .... and likelyhood

oh I am far from convinced that an abductor entered through the patio doors  ...  or by any other way

If there  were an abductor though,  then I would say the patio  doors,  which presented no obstacle,  having been left unlocked,  is the most obvious choice

As to those burglaries you mention  (  where front door keys were used  )   where did you get that information  ?

Are the police reports available to read somewhere  ? 

[sadie]

The door was faulty read the statements of the occupants a couple of weeks prior to the McCanns. The area was hidden and dark.The front door would seem the obvious entry and exit point -hence the window opened to check movements outside imo.

I have read that.  But the door could be locked so that no-body could get in without a key.    The maids had a key, as in all hotels / serviced apartments.  They were at fault in not knocking.  I am wondering if the occupants had never stayed in a serviced appartment/ hotel room before?  Bad that the maids did not knock first tho

You are right, the front door is a burglars paradise, especially with a key.  Tucked away out of sight, nobody passing, and very very dark.  And also behind a wall that must , from memory, be at least chest height.

So easy to bob down or drift into the recess if anyone approached.

Another interesting thing is that if anyone looked as tho they were coming into that long curved walkway at the middle of the building, the curve of that walled pathway meant that any burgalr could vault the chest high wall out of sight of the approaching person.  The approaching person wouldn't even be aware that anyone had been there


If the worst happened then a fit man could vault the wall into the street Jane walked up.  Quite a drop tho.   

[Benita]

The door was faulty the window was faulty ? how safe was anyone who stayed in those apartments ?

[Lyall]

I was assessing exactly what I could see, to remember it accurately.  I was also noticing the rest of the Tapas restaurant

Of course they didn't sit and stare for an hour.

However, had a new oblong of light shown at the Mccanns patio door, or movement happened on the street light flooded patio, there was a very good chance one of these alert people would have noticed.


Why are you so keen that the only way in was via the patio door, when the front door is so obvious?  There has to be a reason.

Accuracy of the picture, that's the only reason. It's important not to minimise the truth about how much of them could be seen from the Tapas. That's the point, and it's one K McCann doesn't deny in the book. You're not helping her by disputing what she says herself (which is also what every other source says, apart from yourself).

[sadie]

Accuracy of the picture, that's the only reason. It's important not to minimise the truth about how much of them could be seen from the Tapas. That's the point, and it's one K McCann doesn't deny in the book. You're not helping her by disputing what she says herself (which is also what every other source says, apart from yourself).

Sorry you are taking this approach.  Have you been there when the bushes were freshly cut back and looked?

Why does it worry you so much that the patio door would have ben used rather than the front door?

Pls can I have your reason?