Author Topic: So where does Amaral turn? ...  (Read 39632 times)

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Offline Luz

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2013, 03:03:22 PM »
If it is the case that the Portuguese Legal system has already decided that the book has not damaged the McCann's Fundamental rights, why is a court currently holding a hearing to decide whether their fundamental rights have been damaged? It would be a strange legal system that allowed a lower court to hear a case that had already been decided in a higher court. I can only conclude that the previous findings of the higher court are legally limited or constrained in some way.


If you are taking a walk on a street and a street lamp falls on you and breaks your skull I assume you would require compensation for damages suffered, although you could not appoint a guilty person, but a damaging event, an entity would have to be responsible. What is being tried in Lisbon is the same: the publication of a book, a DVD and the edition of a documentary, allegedly caused harm/damage to the claimants.

Offline Luz

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2013, 03:08:56 PM »
The defamation laws are very different.

My understanding is that normally (unless there is a legal presumption to the contrary), in a civil case in Portugal, it is up to the plaintiff to provide proof that the rights that gave rise to the suit have been infringed and have caused damage, which then - somehow - has to be quantified.

It doesn't seem to matter what Amaral wrote or said (unless, presumably, it could be proven to have been done in bad faith), but whether whatever he has said or written infringed their rights and caused damage.


You are nearly there.
The defamation law to provide compensation obligates that the crime of defamation was committed. In this case, as by the previous Trial, there is no defamation.

Now, what is requested is the compensation for damages suffered, so what has to be proved is that the claimants suffered objectively any of the damages they claim - that's why it is up to them to prove, qualitatively and quantitatively, such damages.

Offline Carana

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2013, 03:27:46 PM »

You are nearly there.
The defamation law to provide compensation obligates that the crime of defamation was committed. In this case, as by the previous Trial, there is no defamation.

Now, what is requested is the compensation for damages suffered, so what has to be proved is that the claimants suffered objectively any of the damages they claim - that's why it is up to them to prove, qualitatively and quantitatively, such damages.

I'm not sure what you mean by "crime" as this is a civil case.

It does seem a bit odd, though.

I could accuse you (obviously invented) of breeding and eating newborn kittens and puppies for breakfast because, for some reason, I'd been led to this conclusion.

What would your defence be against this appalling accusation?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2013, 03:44:31 PM »
"Crime" is a generic word for any serious infraction that Law sanctions.

Offline Luz

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2013, 04:10:24 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "crime" as this is a civil case.

It does seem a bit odd, though.

I could accuse you (obviously invented) of breeding and eating newborn kittens and puppies for breakfast because, for some reason, I'd been led to this conclusion.

What would your defence be against this appalling accusation?



In Portugal, "defamation" is a crime - Penal Code, artº 180º

«1- Quem, dirigindo-se a terceiro, imputar a outra pessoa, mesmo sob a forma de suspeita, um facto, ou formular sobre ela um juízo, ofensivos da sua honra ou consideração, ou reproduzir uma tal imputação ou juízo, é punido com pena de prisão até 6 meses ou com pena de multa até 240 dias.

1.Who, addressing a third, impute to another person, even in the form of suspicion, a fact, or makes a judgment about them, offending their honor or consideration, or reproduce such an imputation or judgment, is punishable with imprisonment for up to six months or a fine of up to 240 days.]

2- A conduta não é punível quando:
a) A imputação for feita para realizar interesses legítimos; e
b) O agente provar a verdade da mesma imputação ou tiver tido fundamento sério para, em boa fé, a reputar verdadeira.


[2. Such conduct is not punishable when:
a) the imputation is made to prove legitimate interests; and
b) The agent proves the truthfulness of such imputation or if he/she has a serious fundament to, in good faith, repute such as truthful.]

3- Sem prejuízo do disposto nas alíneas b), c) e d) do n.º 2 do artigo 31.º deste Código, o disposto no número anterior não se aplica quando se tratar da imputação de facto relativo à intimidade da vida privada e familiar.

[3. Without prejudice of b), c) and d) in the article 31º, nº 2* of this Code, the disposition in the revious number does not apply when there is an imputation of fact to intimacy of the family and  private life.]

4- A boa fé referida na alínea b) do n.º 2 exclui-se quando o agente não tiver cumprido o dever de informação, que as circunstâncias do caso impunham, sobre a verdade da imputação.

[4. The good faith referred in b) of nº 2 is excluded when the agent did not accomplish the duty of information, that the circumstances of the case obligated, about the truth of the imputation]  »


*NOTE: artº31º - causes precluding wrongfulness and guilt

2- Namely it is not illicit the act committed:
a) in self defense;
b) within the exercise of a right;
c) in the fulfillment of a duty imposed by law or by a legitimate authority order;
d) with the consent of the holder of the aggrieved interest



I hope I could contribute to clarify a little bit.

Number 1 above: "honor and consideration" about the person refers to the Constitutional Fundamental Rights of Personality.

That is what was on the basis for the banning of the book.

As we saw, such banning was dismissed because it was understood that such rights had not been harmed.

Now what we have is a request for compensation of alleged damages, just like a person suffering from a car accident would demand.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:25:01 PM by Luz »

Offline Carana

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2013, 04:16:53 PM »


In Portugal, "defamation" is a crime - Penal Code, artº 180º

«1- Quem, dirigindo-se a terceiro, imputar a outra pessoa, mesmo sob a forma de suspeita, um facto, ou formular sobre ela um juízo, ofensivos da sua honra ou consideração, ou reproduzir uma tal imputação ou juízo, é punido com pena de prisão até 6 meses ou com pena de multa até 240 dias.

1.Who, addressing a third, impute to another person, even in the form of suspicion, a fact, or makes a judgment about it, offending their honor or consideration, or reproduce such an imputation or judgment, is punishable with imprisonment for up to six months or a fine of up to 240 days.]

2- A conduta não é punível quando:
a) A imputação for feita para realizar interesses legítimos; e
b) O agente provar a verdade da mesma imputação ou tiver tido fundamento sério para, em boa fé, a reputar verdadeira.


[2. Such conduct is not punishable when:
a) the imputation is made to prove legitimate interests; and
b) The agent proves the truthfulness of such imputation or if he/she has a serious fundament to, in good faith, repute such as truthful.]

3- Sem prejuízo do disposto nas alíneas b), c) e d) do n.º 2 do artigo 31.º deste Código, o disposto no número anterior não se aplica quando se tratar da imputação de facto relativo à intimidade da vida privada e familiar.

[3. Without prejudice of b), c) and d) in the article 31º, nº 2* of this Code, the disposition in the revious number does not apply when there is an imputation of fact to intimacy of the family and  private life.]

4- A boa fé referida na alínea b) do n.º 2 exclui-se quando o agente não tiver cumprido o dever de informação, que as circunstâncias do caso impunham, sobre a verdade da imputação.

[4. The good faith referred in b) of nº 2 is excluded when the agent did not accomplish the duty of information, that the circumstances of the case obligated, about the truth of the imputation]  »


*NOTE: artº31º - causes precluding wrongfulness and guilt

2- Namely it is not illicit the act committed:
a) in self defense;
b) within the exercise of a right;
c) in the fulfillment of a duty imposed by law or by a legitimate authority order;
d) with the consent of the holder of the aggrieved interest



I hope I can contribute to clarify a little bit.

Thanks for that Luz. Is the definition of defamation in the penal code what will be taken into account in a civil suit? The potential sanctions and burden of proof differ - but is that all?

Offline Luz

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2013, 04:27:39 PM »
Carana, what this Civil Suit is about is the damages suffered: namely to the search for Madeleine and the well being of Mr. & Mrs. McCann, and the twins.

...in my understanding, of course (I am not a lawyer).

Offline Carana

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2013, 04:43:46 PM »
Carana, what this Civil Suit is about is the damages suffered: namely to the search for Madeleine and the well being of Mr. & Mrs. McCann, and the twins.

...in my understanding, of course (I am not a lawyer).

Thanks. I'm aware of that.

But defamation cases in Portugal can be brought as either criminal or civil. My question is whether the legal bases are the same.

ETA: The injunction was an interim measure pending the main civil case, wasn't it?


AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2013, 07:17:25 PM »
That's what I thought Red 8)-))) It was definitely thought provoking.
Who concealed the little boy's body ? Very recently a little girl, 4yrs old, was found hanged out of the same practice (hypoxiphily), but I don't think she was copycatting.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2013, 07:40:35 PM »
Thanks. I'm aware of that.

But defamation cases in Portugal can be brought as either criminal or civil. My question is whether the legal bases are the same.

ETA: The injunction was an interim measure pending the main civil case, wasn't it?
Yes. The providência cautelar is an emergency measure in order to stop a potentially harmful process as quick as possible (in this case the selling of the book) and waiting for a judgement on the main matter. Many times there's an agreement that avoids the main civil case which the injunction is only part of.
In France the decisions made through this procedure can be opposed by the court in charge of the main case, this court having to contemplate all the issues related to the "providência cautelar". But I don't know how it functions in Portugal.

Offline Luz

Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2013, 07:52:17 PM »
Yes. The providência cautelar is an emergency measure in order to stop a potentially harmful process as quick as possible (in this case the selling of the book) and waiting for a judgement on the main matter. Many times there's an agreement that avoids the main civil case which the injunction is only part of.
In France the decisions made through this procedure can be opposed by the court in charge of the main case, this court having to contemplate all the issues related to the "providência cautelar". But I don't know how it functions in Portugal.

If I am not wrong, and beware that I am not a lawyer, to rule in favour of an injunction you have to consider that the object is within a criminal law, in this case of defamation (harming the good name and intimacy of the applicants). The first Trial considered that in fact the book was defaming and maintained the previous injunction, but after the Appeals to 2 other Courts it was found that the book was not defaming and the injunction was lifted.

It may be confusing because in both cases the actions were civil. But in the first it was imperative to determine a criminal action (the publication of the book, DVD and documentary, as defamatory) in order to suppress their existence for the public. In this second action it is not necessary to prove the existence of a crime, but only the existence of damage.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 07:58:18 PM by Luz »

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2013, 07:55:06 PM »
Who concealed the little boy's body ? Very recently a little girl, 4yrs old, was found hanged out of the same practice (hypoxiphily), but I don't think she was copycatting.

The boy's father Anne, but who else also knew is left for viewers to decide. It's a very well made drama.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: So where does Amaral turn? ...
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2013, 11:38:29 PM »
The boy's father Anne, but who else also knew is left for viewers to decide. It's a very well made drama.
Thank you, Lyall. Why did the father conceal ? And he left the mother ignoring ? Did he think his son killed himself ? I'm asking because in real life it happens (rarely but it does) very young children found hanged (through fainting),are considered as having killed themselves, leaving the parents completely in the dark and in never-ending despair.