Scotland Yard's new progress and BBC Crimewatch programme on 14 Oct 2013

[icabodcrane]

Convicted on TORTURED out evidence = NO EVIDENCE

Nothing there, except TORTURED OUT CONFESSIONS

NO FORENSICS  ... NOTHING


And in a case "solved" by a convicted liar, Amaral ... and another officer Cristavao who is currently up, on 7 (SEVEN) fraud and other charges.  Of course with Cristavao, he has to be considered innocent ... until he has been proven otherwise


So you think this unsafe trial using only tortured out evidence, proves them as murderers, Icabod ?


Something lacking in your cognative perspectives there Icabod.




Thinking cap on, I cabod:
Is tortured out evidence a suitable form of evidence for convicting a person ... or is it a gross miscarriage of Justice?

Even if you choose to disregard the rule of law,  there is simply no evidence that little joana was  'abducted'  and you have no business producing a  'list'  that asserts she was

You really must stop presenting your imaginings as though they were fact sadie  ...  it is wrong of you to do that

[Montclair]

Convicted on TORTURED out evidence = NO EVIDENCE

Nothing there, except TORTURED OUT CONFESSIONS

NO FORENSICS  ... NOTHING


And in a case "solved" by a convicted liar, Amaral ... and another officer Cristavao who is currently up, on 7 (SEVEN) fraud and other charges.  Of course with Cristavao, he has to be considered innocent ... until he has been proven otherwise


So you think this unsafe trial using only tortured out evidence, proves them as murderers, Icabod ?


Something lacking in your cognative perspectives there Icabod.




Thinking cap on, I cabod:
Is tortured out evidence a suitable form of evidence for convicting a person ... or is it a gross miscarriage of Justice?

You seem to forget that Leonor had confessed two days before the alleged torture in the company of her lawyer. She was being questioned by the other inspectors to find out where the body was hidden when she was supposedly beaten up. João Cipriano her brother confessed in court in front of the judge and a confession in court is irrevocable and the only valid one in Portugal. Any other confession made during the course of an investigation has no value unless corroborated by one made in the court room. How can you people support this horrible excuse for a mother. She was convicted and it was no miscarriage of justice FGS.

[sadie]

~

Claudia Silva e Sousa went missing in 1994 in Braga, almost 20 years ago! How you find a connection there?
Rui Pedro was 11 years old and went missing in 1998; Jorge Sepulveda was 14 years old and went missing in 1991 (22 years ago!); Rui Pereira was also 14 years old when he went missing in 1999. You can hardly compare these cases with a 3 year old going missing.

Joana Cipriano was murdered by her mother and uncle and their convictions have been upheld by all of the appeals courts, inclulding the Supreme Court. I suppose João Cipriano's confession and the evidence must have been rather strong.

As for Madeleine McCann there is no evidence to support the abduction theory, so you cannot put her name on the list of abductions. Missing yes.

AFAIK, René  Hassee disappeared on a deserted beach right in front of his parents. Hardly likely an abduction but JMO.

ETA: Regarding Rui Pedro Afonso Dias had always been the main suspect and was convicted and sentenced to 3 years and 6 months in prison on 4 March 2013 for abduction of a minor.

Yep, it all started in 1991, up in the north near Oporto and 16 years before Madeleine went .  Approx every 18 months to 2 years, another child was taken, mainly in the North, but Rene Hasse was taken from the Atlantic Coast of the Algarve, just 18 miles WNW of PdL in 1996.   

In, or about, 1999 the son of an Elite was taken in for questioning and IIRC charged.  Someone got him off.   I now think I know who that son of an Elite was .... and who that man was who got him off ... a very powerful man ... loads of clout. 

All information now whitewashed off the internet ... which I find very intersting, tbh.



As far as I am aware there was a gap then for about 5 years altho IIRC a child went missing in Madeira and another child vanished in peculiar circumstances.



Anyway, it all started up again in the Algarve region when Joana went missing in 2004 after what seems to have been a five year break.  Then as stated previously, Carolina (late 2006) and Madeleine (2007)



So 1991 to 2007 is 16 years and it had been going on for that time .... 16 years.  More or less every 18 months to 2 years a child had been taken.

[C.Edwards]

Yep, it all started in 1991, up in the north near Oporto and 16 years before Madeleine went .  Approx every 18 months to 2 years, another child was taken, mainly in the North, but Rene Hasse was taken from the Atlantic Coast of the Algarve, just 18 miles WNW of PdL in 1996.   

In, or about, 1999 the son of an Elite was taken in for questioning and IIRC charged.  Someone got him off.   I now think I know who that son of an Elite was .... and who that man was who got him off ... a very powerful man ... loads of clout. 

All information now whitewashed off the internet ... which I find very intersting, tbh.



As far as I am aware there was a gap then for about 5 years altho IIRC a child went missing in Madeira and another child vanished in peculiar circumstances.



Anyway, it all started up again in the Algarve region when Joana went missing in 2004 after what seems to have been a five year break.  Then as stated previously, Carolina (late 2006) and Madeleine (2007)



So 1991 to 2007 is 16 years and it had been going on for that time .... 16 years.  More or less every 18 months to 2 years a child had been taken.

Sadie, this is delusional nonsense. Stop posting your beliefs as facts, it's confusing and clutters the place up.

[Carana]

I don't know anything about the other children on that list but why have you  included Joana Cipriano on it  ? 

...  She was not abducted ...  she was murdered by her mother and uncle,  who are currently serving long sentences in prison for the crime

I haven't come across any tangible evidence to indicate what happened to that little girl. From the few documents online, it doesn't even seem clear that she ever even got home that night.

Has anyone found the original trial documents online (including the forensic report)?

[icabodcrane]

Yep, it all started in 1991, up in the north near Oporto and 16 years before Madeleine went .  Approx every 18 months to 2 years, another child was taken, mainly in the North, but Rene Hasse was taken from the Atlantic Coast of the Algarve, just 18 miles WNW of PdL in 1996.   

In, or about, 1999 the son of an Elite was taken in for questioning and IIRC charged.  Someone got him off.   I now think I know who that son of an Elite was .... and who that man was who got him off ... a very powerful man ... loads of clout. 

All information now whitewashed off the internet ... which I find very intersting, tbh.



As far as I am aware there was a gap then for about 5 years altho IIRC a child went missing in Madeira and another child vanished in peculiar circumstances.



Anyway, it all started up again in the Algarve region when Joana went missing in 2004 after what seems to have been a five year break.  Then as stated previously, Carolina (late 2006) and Madeleine (2007)



So 1991 to 2007 is 16 years and it had been going on for that time .... 16 years.  More or less every 18 months to 2 years a child had been taken.

I understand that you have a tendency to get carried away with your imaginings sadie,  and those on the board who are familiar with that aspect of your character are generally tolerant of it  ...  but there are a lot of new members here now,  and some of them may mistake your imaginings  for factual information

Indeed,  they might be forgiven for doing so,  since you  present  your imaginings as if it  were factual information

[AnneGuedes]

I haven't come across any tangible evidence to indicate what happened to that little girl. From the few documents online, it doesn't even seem clear that she ever even got home that night.

Has anyone found the original trial documents online (including the forensic report)?

No, Carana, if you're really interested you'll have to go to Portimão to consult the files that were never published because this case is a low profile one and was only talked about in the UK because of Madeleine McCann.
As Montclair said, the judgement of his case was confirmed by the higher court in Portugal. Doubting the Supremo Tribunal de Justiça equals doubting the whole Portuguese system of Justice. Of course this is your right, but I'm not sure it's fair to publicly insinuate they're wrong or biased or whatever as far as Joana and Madeleine are concerned.

[DCI]

You seem to forget that Leonor had confessed two days before the alleged torture in the company of her lawyer. She was being questioned by the other inspectors to find out where the body was hidden when she was supposedly beaten up. João Cipriano her brother confessed in court in front of the judge and a confession in court is irrevocable and the only valid one in Portugal. Any other confession made during the course of an investigation has no value unless corroborated by one made in the court room. How can you people support this horrible excuse for a mother. She was convicted and it was no miscarriage of justice FGS.

No she didn't, she didn't have a lawyer, until she attended court.
Have you read the grotesque descriptions Amaral used and said they had done, to Joanna? Cut her torso up and put in bags, placed in a car, that Joao drove, fed to the pigs, put in a fridge freezer. He couldn't make his mind up which to use. How did he know, all this?
Why was he allowed to use a video in court, when it couldn't be used as evidence? To sway the jury.

Doesn't it all sound familiar?.
Thank god Kate wasn't intimidated, and was never on her own with that lot.

[Victoria]

No she didn't, she didn't have a lawyer, until she attended court.
Have you read the grotesque descriptions Amaral used and said they had done, to Joanna? Cut her torso up and put in bags, placed in a car, that Joao drove, fed to the pigs, put in a fridge freezer. He couldn't make his mind up which to use. How did he know, all this?
Why was he allowed to use a video in court, when it couldn't be used as evidence? To sway the jury.

Doesn't it all sound familiar?.
Thank god Kate wasn't intimidated, and was never on her own with that lot.

I've got to agree. Amaral has a very lurid and paranoid mind if his book is anything to go by. The fact that he's got a criminal conviction for falsifying evidence suggests that he would have gone to any lengths, if he had been allowed to, in order to get the result he wanted. Thankfully his superiors stepped in at the right time and got shot of him.

[Carana]

No, Carana, if you're really interested you'll have to go to Portimão to consult the files that were never published because this case is a low profile one and was only talked about in the UK because of Madeleine McCann.
As Montclair said, the judgement of his case was confirmed by the higher court in Portugal. Doubting the Supremo Tribunal de Justiça equals doubting the whole Portuguese system of Justice. Of course this is your right, but I'm not sure it's fair to publicly insinuate they're wrong or biased or whatever as far as Joana and Madeleine are concerned.

I find it a shame that the original documents aren't online.

I'm not criticising the entire system of justice. The supreme court may have found its hands tied in terms of the legal issues that it could address.

[icabodcrane]

No, Carana, if you're really interested you'll have to go to Portimão to consult the files that were never published because this case is a low profile one and was only talked about in the UK because of Madeleine McCann
 
As Montclair said, the judgement of his case was confirmed by the higher court in Portugal. Doubting the Supremo Tribunal de Justiça equals doubting the whole Portuguese system of Justice. Of course this is your right, but I'm not sure it's fair to publicly insinuate they're wrong or biased or whatever as far as Joana and Madeleine are concerned.

*bit in bold*

How sad   that this poor little girl,  whose miserable life was cut short so brutally,  is a mere foot note in the story of another child  ...  used,  rather disgracefully,   as  a stick with which to beat Amaral 

[Montclair]

No she didn't, she didn't have a lawyer, until she attended court.
Have you read the grotesque descriptions Amaral used and said they had done, to Joanna? Cut her torso up and put in bags, placed in a car, that Joao drove, fed to the pigs, put in a fridge freezer. He couldn't make his mind up which to use. How did he know, all this?
Why was he allowed to use a video in court, when it couldn't be used as evidence? To sway the jury.

Doesn't it all sound familiar?.
Thank god Kate wasn't intimidated, and was never on her own with that lot.

As they say in Portugal : Mentir é feio. To lie is ugly and that is what you have just done. Leonor had a lawyer, his name is João Grade in the beginning and then all of a sudden Marcos Aragão Correio shows up and takes over. An arguido cannot be questioned without the presence of a lawyer. It's amazing what you people come up with! If Leonor Cipriano had not had a lawyer it would certainly have been a good reason to have her conviction overturned and this has not been the case.

[sadie]

Even if you choose to disregard the rule of law,  there is simply no evidence that little joana was  'abducted'  and you have no business producing a  'list'  that asserts she was

You really must stop presenting your imaginings as though they were fact sadie  ...  it is wrong of you to do that

Produce any evidence, prior to the case - facts or forensics that Leonor and Joao did it.  Cites please.   prior to the case.

[Victoria]

I've just been having a browse through the insane world of CMOMM - the posters there are already sending complaints to the BBC, before the show has even aired! Unbelievable! What truly idiotic specimens they are.

[icabodcrane]

Produce any evidence, prior to the case - facts or forensics that Leonor and Joao did it.  Cites please.   prior to the case.

Little Joana's mother and uncle have been  convicted  of  her murder,  and are currently  serving prison sentences for the crime  ...  it isn't  necessary  for me, or anyone else to  'produce evidence'

You,  however,  asserted   that Joana was 'abducted'

Now  ....   you   produce evidence -  facts or forensics to prove that she was

You won't be able to, of course  ...  because it is something you  'imagine'  happened 

That is what you must stop doing sadie  ...  presenting your imaginings as if it is factual information