Author Topic: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?  (Read 52041 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2013, 11:44:59 PM »
Who  did  they say it to then  ? 

...  and if they said it to others  (  family members and friends in the many  phone calls they made that night  )    ...  why  DIDN'T  they say it to the police  ?

Who  did  they say it to then  ? 

So you agree they said nothing to police about forced or jemmied shutters windows?

Give yourself a pat on the back that, at last, you've got something right ...

Offline Luz

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2013, 11:01:29 AM »
Would keep this whole case going for over 6 years if not to find their daughter?

Seriously, they have pushed, petitioned and asked for help from many quarters. They have never let it fade away.

The petition was for a Review -the hope was a Re-opening of the investigation into Madeleines Abduction.

Are these the actions of guilty people?

If it were me and I had gotten away with a serious crime, probably not immediately, but at the right time I would let it fade and leave the country. Not keep on about it for six years

And please don't insult the intelligence of people on this forum by the usual  "they dun it for the money" posts as that is total nonsense.

Have to go out now Ill leave you with it. Cheerio.

"Are these the actions of guilty people?»

YES.

They cold have maintained the investigation ongoing where and when it was supposed to be, in Portugal - from the Archivel Dispatch (last page) signed in Portimão, 21.07.08 by The Republic's Prosecutor (José de Magalhães e Menezes) and The Joint General Prosecutor (João Melchior Gomes)

«Finally, it should be noted that an archiving decision may be a fair decision, although of the possible justice, and, especially, to underline heavily that the archiving of the present files does not equal a definite and irreversible closing of the process. This process, as long as the prescription deadline for the possibly committed crimes does reach its term, and if new evidence that justifies it, appears, can always be reopened, officiously or through the request of an assistant, again ordinate to a final decision of accusation or non accusation.» - as interested parties in the disappearance of the child, and not being arguidos anymore, they could have filed for the quality of assistants and required the investigation to keep open.
Why did they take all those years to blackmail the UK PM, in a sort of "marketing ploy", for a review?!!! I bet they never expected Mr. Cameron to respond to them and especially that SY would be actually working with PJ and abiding with the portuguese laws.

It doesn't matter how much the press (whose only aim is to sell the "poor suffering parents image") attempts to blunder this SY-PJ association, in the end we know they will get to the truth, if that is possible.

 
 

Offline Luz

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2013, 11:29:08 AM »
@ Luz: Why does any of that prove that the McCanns are guilty, or that those are the actions of guilty people. Let's take an example from here. Michael O'Brien does not want to co-operate with the police force that wrongly convicted him. He has very good reasons. They stitched him up. They investigated their stitch up and concluded that they were right all along. They were wrong. Nobody fights harder than O'Brien to find the killer. He even put up a reward to try to catch the killer. He says that he wants justice, but doesn't trust the police force that targeted him to put it right. Are those the actions of a guilty man?

I didn't say what their guilt is.

They are certainly guilty of boycotting their daughter's disappearance investigation.

By the way, you make an interesting point:

Quote
He even put up a reward to try to catch the killer. He says that he wants justice, but doesn't trust the police force that targeted him to put it right. Are those the actions of a guilty man?

Where did the McCann put any part of their belongings in order to find their daughter?! So far they (and their family) have profited from the money that goodhearted people have put forward to search for her. According to the Funds Accounts only an infinitesimal part of it was used in campaigns for Madeleine's search.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 11:35:32 AM by Luz »

Offline jassi

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2013, 11:35:40 AM »
I didn't say what their guilt is.

They are certainly guilty of boycotting their daughter's disappearance investigation.

That's the problem, Because no one can be sure of the exact nature or extent of the crime, it is impossible to establish guilt.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline LagosBen

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2013, 11:38:13 AM »
Thankyou all for your input.

My analysis after a quick catch up...

Sherlock of course is the sensible one.

And as expected from the usual suspects old myths and accusations.

As for riding the Tiger? - Am I allowed to say Bollocks to that ?

Outcome for me is that no one has given me a logical or probable answer to my original question. >@@(*&)

Offline Victoria

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2013, 11:43:29 AM »
Thankyou all for your input.

My analysis after a quick catch up...

Sherlock of course is the sensible one.

And as expected from the usual suspects old myths and accusations.

As for riding the Tiger? - Am I allowed to say Bollocks to that ?

Outcome for me is that no one has given me a logical or probable answer to my original question. >@@(*&)

I don't know about riding the tiger - I think a few posters on here are riding puff the magic dragon given some of the nonsense they come out with. Thinking that they know exactly how parents in the McCanns' position should act and interpreting every action as a sign of guilt being one of the most common examples.

Offline LagosBen

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2013, 11:50:05 AM »
I don't know about riding the tiger - I think a few posters on here are riding puff the magic dragon given some of the nonsense they come out with. Thinking that they know exactly how parents in the McCanns' position should act and interpreting every action as a sign of guilt being one of the most common examples.

Oddly enough a similar thought crossed my mind when I was reading the posts.

How the heck would any poster on here know how and in which way parents who had discovered their child stolen/abducted from her bed would react?

Offline Benice

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2013, 11:52:46 AM »
I didn't say what their guilt is.

They are certainly guilty of boycotting their daughter's disappearance investigation.

By the way, you make an interesting point:

Where did the McCann put any part of their belongings in order to find their daughter?! So far they (and their family) have profited from the money that goodhearted people have put forward to search for her. According to the Funds Accounts only an infinitesimal part of it was used in campaigns for Madeleine's search.


If you have any evidence that the McCann and their family have personally profited from the fund - maybe you should produce it.

Once again the exceedingly large 'Elephant in the Room' -  i.e. the many hundreds of thousands  of pounds put into the Fund which they could quite legitimately have put into their own private bank accounts is studiously ignored.

Very telling IMO.








The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Luz

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2013, 11:54:57 AM »
Would keep this whole case going for over 6 years if not to find their daughter? The question is not would they keep i for six years. The question is why did they start it? They started it as a primary defense reaction - let's get here all the help we can get from our friends and overload these stupid portuguese with a media circus. Once they started there was no way back. They got caught in their own deceiving.

Seriously, they have pushed, petitioned and asked for help from many quarters. They have never let it fade away. All part of the tsunami they created. There was no way to back out without confessing the deceit.

The petition was for a Review -the hope was a Re-opening of the investigation into Madeleines Abduction.
Bullshit. They could have asked for the maintenance of the investigation open for 20 days after the publication of the General Attorney's Dispatch, and until now they still can apply for a re-opening as long as they accept, for instance to the the re-enactment of that night, with their friends, under the terms of the Procedure Penal Law.

Are these the actions of guilty people? I maintain, yes. Those were/are the actions of deceiving people that have been lying and taking advantage of people's generousity in order to maintain a Fund that only serves them and their enlarged family.

If it were me and I had gotten away with a serious crime, probably not immediately, but at the right time I would let it fade and leave the country. Not keep on about it for six years  You probably lack the skills to maintain a "WIDER AGENDA", the one that less than a month after your child had been gone was planning, a sort of one year commemoration,  a worldwide event with all the celebrities he could get...


And please don't insult the intelligence of people on this forum by the usual  "they dun it for the money" posts as that is total nonsense.
It's you that try to insult others by not allowing them to have their own opinions.


Have to go out now Ill leave you with it. Cheerio. Have a nice lunch

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2013, 12:46:48 PM »

If the McCanns feel that the Portuguese police have made up their minds about them, why would they trust them now? If you were in their shoes and felt that way about investigators - any investigators - would you trust them?
Where are those eventually real feelings grounded ? Have you any direct source, not hearsay, from Mr or Mrs McCann at the time of the facts (I discard "Madeleine") that suggests this making up of minds ?
Let me just remind you that the MP regularly claimed they were investigating all lines, even after the arguido measure.
The hated coordinator of the investigation was dismissed beginning of October, the investigation was for 9 months coordinated by someone else, and this coordinator as the dismissed one were under the strict control of the Public Prosecutor and the Judge of Instruction (concerning human rights).
Would you seriously advise anyone involved or concerned by a crime in Portugal to escape to their country-land in order that Justice might win ?

Offline Luz

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2013, 01:17:22 PM »
Luz, I have worked on miscarriages of justice for over 20 years and helped to not only overturn a notorious one, but put it right by finding the real killer. At times I was on my own doing it. This means that I have seen several investigations that have a self-serving agenda. A case hypothesis is developed and it over-rides evidence, common-sense and even the law.

In the major case I worked on there was a closed mind and in the end an appalling miscarriage of justice occurred. As soon as the Cardiff 3 (2 were acquitted) had their convictions, the police investigated themselves. They decided they had done nothing wrong. The Lord Chief Justice - the top judge in our country - had said a month earlier that he never wanted to hear interviewing like that in his court ever again.

The police demanded new evidence. I gave it to them with the support of the dead woman's mother and they made a complete pig's ear of it. We had to stop them using all the DNA up to prevent them making it unsolvable. I wrote and published a book about it which included how it could be solved. A year later it was reopened again and this time it was investigated properly and resulted in the case being solved correctly. It is the one example of an outrageously bad investigation being followed by a superb one.

Later another investigation followed which ended in justice being betrayed again. I don't trust the system to put right what it did wrong in that case. Does that make me guilty too? Is Michael O'Brien guilty of anything for not trusting the system as well. He believes (with cause) that the police are trying to stitch him up again. If the McCanns believed that the Portuguese investigators were out to achieve that why would they co-operate?

I understand what you are saying. I've worked for the justice system for many years, both for the prosecution and defense. I know it doesn't always work well and many times there are situations where innocents are wrongly mistreated. But let me tell you. In Portugal, most times it is the victims, the real victims (children, adolescents, women and now even some men) of abuse and neglect that are less protected.

The McCann had no reason to be fearful, they had a huge battery of support behind them. They were treated like innocents from the beginning until it became impossible not to examine them.
They screwed big time. They had disrespected every directive the police had given them, they were ostentatiously disrespectful whenever they were called to check the leads that kept coming, they went on with their media propaganda after the british and portuguese police asked them to calm down.
After Kate McCann confessed to Ricardo Paiva that she had dreams about Madeleine being dead, and they requested for the phony South African to come to Praia da Luz; after some Uk experts told the portuguese authorities that the parents had to be examined, what did you expect that should be done. Tell them: nice to meet you, now go home?

In fact they did, because the imbecile judge instead of putting them in pre-emptive imprisonment, gave them the minimum restriction order: to remain in their residence (which was Rothley), and they took it.

Now I ask, if you had a child missing, would you just escape like a rabbit from a fox? Or would you stay and try to help, not only to clear your position, but most of all, find your child?

__________

I hope you can make out what I wrote. Speaking in portuguese with people here and writing in english is too hard. Sorry for such a bad text.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 01:26:14 PM by Luz »

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2013, 01:24:46 PM »
Luz, I have worked on miscarriages of justice for over 20 years and helped to not only overturn a notorious one, but put it right by finding the real killer. At times I was on my own doing it. This means that I have seen several investigations that have a self-serving agenda. A case hypothesis is developed and it over-rides evidence, common-sense and even the law.

In the major case I worked on there was a closed mind and in the end an appalling miscarriage of justice occurred. As soon as the Cardiff 3 (2 were acquitted) had their convictions, the police investigated themselves. They decided they had done nothing wrong. The Lord Chief Justice - the top judge in our country - had said a month earlier that he never wanted to hear interviewing like that in his court ever again.

The police demanded new evidence. I gave it to them with the support of the dead woman's mother and they made a complete pig's ear of it. We had to stop them using all the DNA up to prevent them making it unsolvable. I wrote and published a book about it which included how it could be solved. A year later it was reopened again and this time it was investigated properly and resulted in the case being solved correctly. It is the one example of an outrageously bad investigation being followed by a superb one.

Later another investigation followed which ended in justice being betrayed again. I don't trust the system to put right what it did wrong in that case. Does that make me guilty too? Is Michael O'Brien guilty of anything for not trusting the system as well. He believes (with cause) that the police are trying to stitch him up again. If the McCanns believed that the Portuguese investigators were out to achieve that why would they co-operate?

Two big differences between the cases, Dhingra. The whole world was watching Portugal, and unfortunately few were looking at Cardiff as you know.

The other difference is obvious - it was their daughter who was missing. They ought to have put her before themselves?

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2013, 01:46:24 PM »
Why not? It is not an isolated one - just an example to illustrate the point, which you have not responded to. Is there any reason for the McCanns to trust the Portuguese system to find out what happened to Madeleine?

@ Anne: the key word I used was If ...

Any investigation should look at any reasonable hypothesis and then test it. After testing it they should revieww it and progress should be evidence-based. I am no fan of what the McCanns did that night and before, but I'd be surprised if they didn't beat themselves up privately over their errors that night and more thoroughly than people on here do. They certainly made a lousy decision regarding the care of their children that night. Who is saying otherwise? Does any of that come close to proving that Madeleine died in that apartment that night.

I also think it telling that there has not been a single response to my post in another thread that could test the abduction-hypothesis. Like I said before, I need evidence to reach any conclusion on what happened to poor Madeleine. Without it I remain firmly on the fence.

Welcome to the Madeleine Case discussion, Dhingra.  You have made some excellent posts.

Offline jassi

Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2013, 01:48:38 PM »
By the looks, that's where they have spent it, or at least a part. The other part was probably on their many trips, as Kennedy and Branson seem to have left the boat.

In 2007 they were discussing a miserable 1500€ week vacation in a cheap resort, after the Fund was set they payed 2 months mortgages in their Rothley House,  nowadays they go to 5 star Hotels, make fruitless plane travels just to appear in the journos outside a Court House... The Fund has become very handy, indeed.

None of this searching business comes cheap, you know.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline DCI

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Re: Would a guilty person have kept the case alive for 6 years?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2013, 01:57:51 PM »
By the looks, that's where they have spent it, or at least a part. The other part was probably on their many trips, as Kennedy and Branson seem to have left the boat.

In 2007 they were discussing a miserable 1500€ week vacation in a cheap resort, after the Fund was set they payed 2 months mortgages in their Rothley House,  nowadays they go to 5 star Hotels, make fruitless plane travels just to appear in the journos outside a Court House... The Fund has become very handy, indeed.

Never mind Luz. At least they pay their mortgage, taxes, and haven't committed fraud against family.
Gerry doesn't beat Kate up, or threaten to kill her.

They wouldn't have to make fruitless plane travels just to appear in Court House, if the Court got their act together, and stopped wasting time, on stupid excuses! Do they ask you to pay for anything, NO, so keep your beak out  8((()*/
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