Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?

[jassi]

I've seen that mentioned before - can you put the comment in context Jassi - as IIRC this is an example of a few words being taken out of context to give them a different meaning to the one that was intended?

'fraid not. As far as I'm aware, its just a saying, possibly with political origins..

[Mr Gray]

That is most unfair, Sadie.  You appear to be accusing me of being pleased if someone who is not well is upset by my posting.  This is a discussion forum and people will say what they feel without expecting sideways accusations like that - if you do not feel well enough to post here, maybe you should not.  No, I do not take delight in "significantly reducing your health" and I object to that accusation very strongly.

We had discussed earlier whether the McCanns had admitted that they were wrong to leave the children and I had said I had heard them say they regretted their actions but never admit to being in the wrong; then Kate made this comment in the preview of the CW programme and in my mind it was a very unwise comment to make, repeating that they had done no wrong.  To my mind both were wrong - the McCanns and, obviously, the abductor if there was one.  The one does not preclude the other.

And I have to agree with the last two posts - they say much what I have previously said.

You do NOT have not answer this, Sadie; indeed if you are going to accuse me of making your illness worse, I would rather you do not

in my view it is grossly unfair to expect the McCanns to don sack cloth and ashes and beg forgiveness. In my opinion there are far worse parents.

As a very experienced social worker you must have seen thousands of cases. Do you have any evidence...similar cases that heve been prosecuted ...that would support the idea that the McCanns are guilty of legal neglect

[CPN]

in my view it is grossly unfair to expect the McCanns to don sack cloth and ashes and beg forgiveness. In my opinion there are far worse parents.

As a very experienced social worker you must have seen thousands of cases. Do you have any evidence...similar cases that heve been prosecuted ...that would support the idea that the McCanns are guilty of legal neglect

I fully agree - there are far worse parents.  That does not mean that any parents who are "less worse" than any others should not be criticised for what they do.

Your second point I have already answered - if I was to respond like you I would say a go and search for it!  However here we are again, but next time I shall not repeat it:  I had three sisters in care who had been removed from their parents under very similar circumstances.  Can I prove it ? - no.  All Social Work is confidential , as you know, so I am careful how I word my posts.  So you can believe me or not as you wish, that is your decision.

[Mr Gray]

I fully agree - there are far worse parents.  That does not mean that any parents who are "less worse" than any others should not be criticised for what they do.

Your second point I have already answered - if I was to respond like you I would say a go and search for it!  However here we are again, but next time I shall not repeat it:  I had three sisters in care who had been removed from their parents under very similar circumstances.  Can I prove it ? - no.  All Social Work is confidential , as you know, so I am careful how I word my posts.  So you can believe me or not as you wish, that is your decision.

if parents were prosecuted it would be in the public domain so there would be no confidentiality problem... obviously without the details we cant  make  a judgement on the case you mention but as its confidential it seems it didn't go to criminal prosecution. from what you have said  and what I have raed it seems there is not a case for the prosecution of the McCanns as some posters claim

[Lace]

I fully agree - there are far worse parents.  That does not mean that any parents who are "less worse" than any others should not be criticised for what they do.

Your second point I have already answered - if I was to respond like you I would say a go and search for it!  However here we are again, but next time I shall not repeat it:  I had three sisters in care who had been removed from their parents under very similar circumstances.  Can I prove it ? - no.  All Social Work is confidential , as you know, so I am careful how I word my posts.  So you can believe me or not as you wish, that is your decision.

I think the McCann's have been criticised CPN,   they know full well what is being said about them.    I think enough has been said though and that they are suffering with the loss of Madeleine,  which should be enough pain for them.

They obviously love their daughter and miss her,  they are doing everything they can to find her,  and this constant attack about leaving her does nothing for the search for Madeleine.

[CPN]

if parents were prosecuted it would be in the public domain so there would be no confidentiality problem... obviously without the details we cant  make  a judgement on the case you mention but as its confidential it seems it didn't go to criminal prosecution. from what you have said  and what I have raed it seems there is not a case for the prosecution of the McCanns as some posters claim

Oh davel, please - I have said all this before also.

For Social Services (at least Children's Departments, I can't speak for others) prosecution is the last resort.  If matters can be dealt with in other ways, they will be and I have made two suggestions for this - parenting classes, and the Child Protection Register.  Incidentally when I worked in the Children's hospital I knew of one case where parenting classes were agreed to as an alternative to prosecution - and they were very successful in that case.  That does not mean that there was not a case for prosecution it means that it was decided to deal with the situation in other ways.

[Cariad]

if parents were prosecuted it would be in the public domain so there would be no confidentiality problem... obviously without the details we cant  make  a judgement on the case you mention but as its confidential it seems it didn't go to criminal prosecution. from what you have said  and what I have raed it seems there is not a case for the prosecution of the McCanns as some posters claim

Perhaps you could give us the details of another case where 3 children under four were left alone and one disappeared?

Then we can compare like for like.

[Mr Gray]

Perhaps you could give us the details of another case where 3 children under four were left alone and one disappeared?

Then we can compare like for like.

 That's the whole point. What happened to Maddie, the abduction, could just not have been expected because it is so rare

[Mr Gray]

Former Northern Ireland and Cheshire cop Edgar, 52, Edgar and his hard-core squad of four hand-picked investigators -drafted in by the McCanns last November – are also looking at records of six sex attacks against youngsters in the Algarve leading up to Madeleine’s kidnap. Again, these are poorly documented by the Portuguese.

“Most of attacks were overnight, in apartments and at least five involved British children,” he said. “I am looking for links to the Madeleine abduction – geographical links, links with the descriptions.”

The attacks are:

APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). Sex assault on 10-year-old girl.

JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. Sex assault on nine-year-old girl.

JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. Sex assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.

OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. Sex assault on eight-year-old girl

CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.

MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl’s bed.

Edgar told us: “Some of the attacks were in the files and some were in other documents that were not terribly obvious. Again I am subject to the frailties of the Portuguese authorities and have to work with what I have been given. I have tried to build bridges with them but have had no response. But we have access to other files that have not been released to the public and the media.”.


 the above is a quote from Dave Edgar re paedophiles in the Algarve.

[Cariad]

That's the whole point. What happened to Maddie, the abduction, could just not have been expected because it is so rare

I thought you'd stated that abduction from the home was less rare than fatal accidents (not including fires or stair) and we've found through scrupulous and time consuming research that every year there are 55 fatalities to children resulting from accidents in the home (notincludingstairsorfire)?

In fact, iirc you said considerably more likely! so I guess that must be in the region of 70 or 80 abductions from the home each year?

[Mr Gray]

I thought you'd stated that abduction from the home was less rare than fatal accidents (not including fires or stair) and we've found through scrupulous and time consuming research that every year there are 55 fatalities to children resulting from accidents in the home (notincludingstairsorfire)?

In fact, iirc you said considerably more likely! so I guess that must be in the region of 70 or 80 abductions from the home each year?

 From my memory you are wrong on both points and as you are quoting them it is up to you to verify them

 First , I can guarantee that I never used the word "considerably" you little fibber

Secondly the figure of 55 is as I remember your own estimate

[Cariad]

From my memory you are wrong on both points and as you are quoting them it is up to you to verify them

 First , I can guarantee that I never used the word "considerably" you little fibber

Secondly the figure of 55 is as I remember your own estimate

davel:the reason for fatal accidents with children in the home are extremely small and are almost exclusively related to stairs.  no stairs in the appt

Ive already seen this article and as I pointed out to you fatal accidents in the home re children in the vast majority of cases involve stairs or fires. No fire in PDL, no stairs in PDL.., making a stranger adduction far more likely...in your opening post you stated that the chance of  stranger abduction was miniscule..it isn't ..your figure Is 68 that's not miniscule

icabod:oh for God's sake  ! 

Please  ...  please  ...  don't present the case that young children who  are  left unattended  at home are more at risk  of stranger abduction that fatal accidents 

...  just for the sake of not making yourself look simple  ...  please don't do that


Davel:
Its not me saying that its the statistic supplied by the poster. Its called evidence

icabdod:WHAT  ?

Are you claiming that  'statistically'   infants left alone  are more likely to be snatched from their bed by strangers than  they are to suffer serious or fatal injury  ? 

Is that what you are claiming  ?

davel:ve already answered  this question this morning but you don't seem to have the intelligence to understand..lets keep it simple...stranger abductions..68....fatal accidents 120...source ..figures from post by cariad
If you factor out deaths from fires and stairs....which are the most common reasons for fatalities in the home abduction is much more likely

no stairs or fires in PDL so it is far more likely...that Maddie was abducted.. thats what Sy think as well


davel:It is actually what the evidence supports...even personal experience shows that although children have accidents at home it is unusual that these accidents are  fatal. fatal ones usually involve fires or stairs...none of these in the pdl appt. The figure of 68 for abductions is surprisingly high.
I don't expect you to understand a post based on logic..blind prejudice is your forte as you have regularly shown

davel:lets just get straight what I actually said


Quote from: davel on September 29, 2013, 08:44:44 PM
you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common

Now that is entirely different to abductions are more common than fatal accidents

davel:you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common  IMO

Can you prove me wrong

Cariad:"Falls are the most common accidents, which can cause serious injury at any time of life. Fifty-five per cent of accidental injuries in the home involve falls"

http://www.rospa.com/homesafety/adviceandinformation/general/facts-figures.aspx


I'm going to be excessively kind to you and remove 55% of the 120 deaths (despite the citation saying falls, not stairs and accidents not fatalities) leaving a total of 54 deaths.

I'm going to be generous again and leave in the sole example of the one child taken from the bath as a successful stranger abduction from the home, even though he was known to the family and invited inside the dwelling.

The fiures now read 54 v's 1.

If you wish to disagree with this total davel, you'll need to supply your own figures to back it up.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2432.105

firstly, you're right, you didn't say 'considerably' although calling me a liar is both against forum rules and rude. It was an honest mistake.

secondly, You'll see above how the figure of 54 (again, I apologise, not 55 as I previously stated) was worked out.

[Mr Gray]

 From my memory you are wrong on both points and as you are quoting them it is up to you to verify them

 First , I can guarantee that I never used the word "considerably" you little fibber

Secondly the figure of 55 is as I remember your own estimate


 The above was my post ...so you have graciously accepted you were wrong in the first instance...now we will move to the second part

[Mr Gray]

davel:the reason for fatal accidents with children in the home are extremely small and are almost exclusively related to stairs.  no stairs in the appt

Ive already seen this article and as I pointed out to you fatal accidents in the home re children in the vast majority of cases involve stairs or fires. No fire in PDL, no stairs in PDL.., making a stranger adduction far more likely...in your opening post you stated that the chance of  stranger abduction was miniscule..it isn't ..your figure Is 68 that's not miniscule

icabod:oh for God's sake  ! 

Please  ...  please  ...  don't present the case that young children who  are  left unattended  at home are more at risk  of stranger abduction that fatal accidents 

...  just for the sake of not making yourself look simple  ...  please don't do that


Davel:
Its not me saying that its the statistic supplied by the poster. Its called evidence

icabdod:WHAT  ?

Are you claiming that  'statistically'   infants left alone  are more likely to be snatched from their bed by strangers than  they are to suffer serious or fatal injury  ? 

Is that what you are claiming  ?

davel:ve already answered  this question this morning but you don't seem to have the intelligence to understand..lets keep it simple...stranger abductions..68....fatal accidents 120...source ..figures from post by cariad
If you factor out deaths from fires and stairs....which are the most common reasons for fatalities in the home abduction is much more likely

no stairs or fires in PDL so it is far more likely...that Maddie was abducted.. thats what Sy think as well


davel:It is actually what the evidence supports...even personal experience shows that although children have accidents at home it is unusual that these accidents are  fatal. fatal ones usually involve fires or stairs...none of these in the pdl appt. The figure of 68 for abductions is surprisingly high.
I don't expect you to understand a post based on logic..blind prejudice is your forte as you have regularly shown

davel:lets just get straight what I actually said


Quote from: davel on September 29, 2013, 08:44:44 PM
you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common

Now that is entirely different to abductions are more common than fatal accidents

davel:you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common  IMO

Can you prove me wrong

Cariad:"Falls are the most common accidents, which can cause serious injury at any time of life. Fifty-five per cent of accidental injuries in the home involve falls"

http://www.rospa.com/homesafety/adviceandinformation/general/facts-figures.aspx


I'm going to be excessively kind to you and remove 55% of the 120 deaths (despite the citation saying falls, not stairs and accidents not fatalities) leaving a total of 54 deaths.

I'm going to be generous again and leave in the sole example of the one child taken from the bath as a successful stranger abduction from the home, even though he was known to the family and invited inside the dwelling.

The fiures now read 54 v's 1.

If you wish to disagree with this total davel, you'll need to supply your own figures to back it up.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2432.105

firstly, you're right, you didn't say 'considerably' although calling me a liar is both against forum rules and rude. It was an honest mistake.

secondly, You'll see above how the figure of 54 (again, I apologise, not 55 as I previously stated) was worked out.

if you read the part of the post highlighted in red you will see that there are no figures for accidents in the home not involving stairs and fires so you have made YOUR OWN approximations


these are not official figures these are your figures


 I called you a little fibber...please do not make statements attributed to me that I haven't made

[Cariad]

if you read the part of the post highlighted in red you will see that there are no figures for accidents in the home not involving stairs and fires so you have made YOUR OWN approximations


these are not official figures these are your figures


 I called you a little fibber...please do not make statements attributed to me that I haven't made

What's the difference between calling me a fibber and calling me a liar?