Did the moving door have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance?

[Redblossom]

What were the twins in? Take a push chair up the back steps.

Well apparently they didnt have one, but even if they did, no problem carrying that up or taken round the front by GM..whilst the kids went up the stairs....I thnk you are sweating the small stuff here, no offense meant....Just lost track of what you are trying to argue

[AnneGuedes]

No.

You just have to read the GNR reports.

They had a debate about whether or not to give the dogs something of Madeleine's to sniff  -- a debate that would not have been necessary if they'd had tracker dogs, because tracker dogs can't work any other way.

Mark Harrison said in his report that the GNR deployed aerial scenting dogs.

Mark Harrison was right.

They deployed also rescue dogs.
I've read the GNR reports and Rex' handler's report and there is no debate as you pretend.
Rex was given a bath towel.
Numi, 24 hours sooner, was given the blanket.

Please if you find a document saying that Rex was a rescue dog, post it !

[pathfinder73]

Well apparently they didnt have one, but even if they did, no problem carrying that up or taken round the front by GM..whilst the kids went up the stairs....I thnk you are sweating the small stuff here, no offense meant....Just lost track of what you are trying to argue

That's ok thanks. Going to take a look at these dog reports.

[AnneGuedes]

because tracker dogs can't work any other way.

I thought so too, but it seems not
http://newyorksearchandrescue.org/download/Scents%20and%20Sense-Ability%20K9%20article.pdf

[Benice]

That sounds the more simple and likely. Mr McCann, who said he never looked inside, thought he had to invent a pretext to look into the bedroom in order to confirm that Madeleine was sleeping in her bed at 9:10pm. The mysteriously moving door introduced also an element of dramatism in the narrative. Was the intruder in or not ?

Everybody realises by now that Mr Oldfield never went inside of the flat[/b]. He possibly listened at the shutters, but couldn't say it because of Tannerman.

Speak for yourself Anne, I fully believe Matt went into 5A.   It doesn't surprise me that he didn't go into the bedrom.   There was no sound coming from it  - and because of that he would automatically assume  that all the children were fast asleep  - and that is all  he went there to establish.         Why would he think anything different?   He wasn't there to check whether one of them had been abducted.  He would have no way of knowing whether the door was how Gerry left it or not.

It's easy to say 'he lied' but not so easy to explain why and when he decided to.    If he didn't go into 5A how could he have described the bedroom - someone would have to explain it all to him.  When did that happen?

When did he find out that JT had seen someone and the details of when and where she saw him - she wasn't in 5A until after the PJ arrived?        What difference did it make  if he listened outside the window at 9.30 and so didn't see Madeleine, or if he went into the apartment at 9.30 - and didn't see Madeleine because of where he stood.       In both scenarios he didn't see Madeleine so why would he think lying would make any difference to anything JT saw?

So easy for others to say ''Ohh he lied'' with the 20/20 vision of hindsight and knowing all the facts as we now know them.   But he would have needed to be able to see into the future to think in the way you suggest IMO.

       

[pathfinder73]

Yes I wouldn't overcomplicate things. This was very easy to do if the the window wasn't opened (BIG MISTAKE NO. 1). Originally only two checks were supposed to happen before the alert not 3 - MO put a spanner in the works concerning the discrepancy of the door (BIG MISTAKE NO. 2) . Smithman would have been in the streets at 9.35pm and not 10pm.

[AnneGuedes]

Have you read his description of the bedroom, Benice ? Have you seen the photo of the police?
Why did he get in if he only listened ? Why didn't he react seeing a bed was empty ?

[ferryman]

They do have these dogs too, Ferryman, but Rex was a tracker dog.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.

Simply put, that debate (about whether to give the dog something of Madeleine's to sniff) would not have been necessary if they were tracker dogs.  Tracker dogs can't work any other way.

To a tracker  dog, a combination of odours would not be a hindrance, because dogs have the ability to differentiate and distinguish between different scents, disregarding the scents they are not primed to track and focussing on the ones they are.

[AnneGuedes]

  He wasn't there to check whether one of them had been abducted.

Very true. So he didn't have to do visual check.

[AnneGuedes]

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl's clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.

Ferryman, I hope you only made a confusion here. This report concerns the 7th of May, not the 4th when Rex and Zarus picked up the track after sniffing the bath towel.
 Vol XIII Pages 3517-24

[icabodcrane]

Very true. So he didn't have to do visual check.

That is a good point Anne

If Oldfield was merely checking if the children were asleep then the 'listening at the window'   check he had done previously would have been sufficient

Did he  ever say  why,  on that last occasion,  he changed his routine, and went into  the McCanns' apartment, having never done so before  ? 

[Lyall]

What difference did it make  if he listened outside the window at 9.30 and so didn't see Madeleine, or if he went into the apartment at 9.30 - and didn't see Madeleine because of where he stood.       In both scenarios he didn't see Madeleine so why would he think lying would make any difference to anything JT saw?

So easy for others to say ''Ohh he lied'' with the 20/20 vision of hindsight and knowing all the facts as we now know them.   But he would have needed to be able to see into the future to think in the way you suggest IMO.

     

Because (perhaps...) he's the only witness to the patio door being unlocked?

[ferryman]

The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.

Mark Harrison

[pathfinder73]

That is a good point Anne

If Oldfield was merely checking if the children were asleep then the 'listening at the window'   check he had done previously would have been sufficient

Did he  ever say  why,  on that last occasion,  he changed his routine, and went into  the McCanns' apartment, having never done so before  ? 

I thought Kate told him that the patio door was open? If he didn't know it was open he wouldn't have went inside.

[pathfinder73]

“ The sniffer dog search and rescue team of the GNR was sent to Vila da Luz in the attempt of locating Madeleine McCann, aged four, of British nationality, who disappeared on the night of 3rd May, from apartment 5 A, Block 5 of the OC resort, the team was composed as follows:”

Sargeant Silva – Dog: Timmy
 Officer Cortez – Dog: Sacha
 Officer Sousa – Dog: Kolly/Cookie
 Officer Rosa – Dog: Oscar
 Officer Martins – Dog: Fusco
 Officer Fernandes – Dog: Rex/ Zarus

“During the afternoon of 4th May, more searches were carried out around Vila da Luz and were extended to a radius of approximately 600 metres, including the surroundings of the EN125 in the stretch closed to P da L.

At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).

After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.

Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.

It is important to state that this tracking work was carried out in an urban area and more than 24 hours after the girl’s disappearance and numerous persons had passed along the path the dogs were tracking. It should also be stated that the path the dogs followed within the resort was practically totally surrounded by walls and the concentration of odours was stronger as they were protected from the wind. The searches finished at about 01.30”


"he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground)."

Have we got any images to show the direction the dogs took from 5A please? Thanks.