Author Topic: Praia Da Luz Church  (Read 96910 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #195 on: June 15, 2014, 08:49:19 PM »
They haven't checked around the church yet. That is the first area I would check. Thanks for the article WS.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #196 on: June 15, 2014, 08:55:03 PM »
Oh, has some progress been made? Do tell what it is, as I haven't noticed.

I would be ashamed to be making such an admission were I you. Regurgitating the myths of 2007, really does illustrate that you are stuck in such a time warp you are incapable of reading and digesting current developments.

You possibly missed that the current searches were not carried out in the environs of the church.  Suggesting the church myths are not top of the list for the Met or the PJ ... and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007.

The main progression is the reopening of Madeleine's case ... in case you missed that too ... as for the rest ... you will just have to wait for the official announcements.
One of which goes along the lines of the parents not being persons of interest etc; or did you miss that one too?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline jassi

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #197 on: June 15, 2014, 08:57:39 PM »
I would be ashamed to be making such an admission were I you. Regurgitating the myths of 2007, really does illustrate that you are stuck in such a time warp you are incapable of reading and digesting current developments.

You possibly missed that the current searches were not carried out in the environs of the church.  Suggesting the church myths are not top of the list for the Met or the PJ ... and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007.

The main progression is the reopening of Madeleine's case ... in case you missed that too ... as for the rest ... you will just have to wait for the official announcements.
One of which goes along the lines of the parents not being persons of interest etc; or did you miss that one too?





Is that progress ?  I thought you meant they were actually progressing in the 'search' for Madeleine
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 08:59:29 PM by jassi »
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #198 on: June 15, 2014, 08:57:46 PM »
I would be ashamed to be making such an admission were I you. Regurgitating the myths of 2007, really does illustrate that you are stuck in such a time warp you are incapable of reading and digesting current developments.

You possibly missed that the current searches were not carried out in the environs of the church.  Suggesting the church myths are not top of the list for the Met or the PJ ... and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007.

The main progression is the reopening of Madeleine's case ... in case you missed that too ... as for the rest ... you will just have to wait for the official announcements.
One of which goes along the lines of the parents not being persons of interest etc; or did you miss that one too?

Show me the church searches from 2007 in the files?
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #199 on: June 15, 2014, 09:25:50 PM »
Show me the church searches from 2007 in the files?

You mean they failed to investigate the civic works which were being carried out in the streets around the church at that time?

Did they fail to search the adjacent ruined building and the waste ground?

No investigation into the reported  supposedly ancient tunnels under the church either to rule in or to rule out?

No Eddie cadaver alerts ... bearing in mind the discussion regarding embalming in Portugal?

So no searching at all of the environs of the church?

I think if as you seem to imply no searches were carried out there, not only is it rank incompetence but rather stupid into the bargain.

The statement I made said "and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007."  So for me, no cite required for obvious reasons.

Your query suggests that you believe none were made in that area ... so unless you can provide evidence to the contrary ... I think you have just kicked an enormous "own goal" which backs up the failures of the original investigation somewhat if that diligence was ignored.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #200 on: June 15, 2014, 09:48:01 PM »
You mean they failed to investigate the civic works which were being carried out in the streets around the church at that time?

Did they fail to search the adjacent ruined building and the waste ground?

No investigation into the reported  supposedly ancient tunnels under the church either to rule in or to rule out?

No Eddie cadaver alerts ... bearing in mind the discussion regarding embalming in Portugal?

So no searching at all of the environs of the church?

I think if as you seem to imply no searches were carried out there, not only is it rank incompetence but rather stupid into the bargain.

The statement I made said "and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007."  So for me, no cite required for obvious reasons.

Your query suggests that you believe none were made in that area ... so unless you can provide evidence to the contrary ... I think you have just kicked an enormous "own goal" which backs up the failures of the original investigation somewhat if that diligence was ignored.


No they haven't searched the areas properly around the church, building site etc. The dogs searched the beach and cliff faces (only so far up which they could go from the bottom) to rocha negra. I think Amaral would've done if he wasn't thrown off the case.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 09:50:06 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #201 on: June 15, 2014, 09:59:55 PM »
No they haven't searched the areas properly around the church, building site etc. The dogs searched the beach and cliff faces (only so far up which they could go from the bottom) to rocha negra. I think Amaral would've done if he wasn't thrown off the case.
What prevented him searching the area prior to being booted?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #202 on: June 15, 2014, 10:21:28 PM »
What prevented him searching the area prior to being booted?

I think Mark Harrison advised the search areas. Amaral was arranging to bring the Smith family back to Portugal just before he was removed. Smithman after passing the Smiths was heading down Rua 25 de Abril in the direction of the church so the next logical step is to conduct searches around the church/rocks. I believe Amaral would have done searches there.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #203 on: June 15, 2014, 11:43:23 PM »
I think Mark Harrison advised the search areas. Amaral was arranging to bring the Smith family back to Portugal just before he was removed. Smithman after passing the Smiths was heading down Rua 25 de Abril in the direction of the church so the next logical step is to conduct searches around the church/rocks. I believe Amaral would have done searches there.

In other words resources were concentrated on gathering evidence to implicate Madeleine's parents in her disappearance. For example waiting for Mr Smith to return after 'recognising' the child carrier. Why didn't Dr Amaral have the area searched at the time of Mr Smith's original statement if that was the logical thing to do?

Why no search of an area close to the OC apartments in the hours and days after Madeleine's disappearance where public works were in progress?  Surely that would have been the logical thing to do?

What a portrait of disaster you depict.
Surely it is logical to presume if areas like these are not searched ... there is absolutely no chance of eliminating them in an enquiry into what has become of a missing child.

It is these elementary diligences that the current investigation is carrying out.  It is evident it is what was neglected to be done in 2007.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #204 on: June 16, 2014, 12:26:53 AM »
Amaral was removed only 3 weeks after the McCanns were made arguido. He probably would've planned further searches if he wasn't removed. The McCanns brought Krugel and his machine in for the searches so they wouldn't let that happen if they believe the McCanns were guilty. It all changed re dogs alerts.

23/7/07

Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser

GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance.

 On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann.
 Major Seqeuira has not benefited from any formal training or accreditation in the management of searching for missing persons. The search officers with the exception of the search and rescue team dispatched from Lisbon had not benefited from any formal training in search procedures. The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered
 around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.

 The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing.

 The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.

 The next Zone 2 was extended out to a radius of 7km to the boundary of the N120 road at Bensafrim. As the sectors were larger and in order to support the line searches 2 GNR officers on motorcycles and 6 GNR officers on horse
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 -back were deployed. These sectors were all searched on 2 separate occasions over the 7 day period.
 The outer zone 3 was extended to 15km at Barragem de Odiaxere a dammed lake. This zone is in a mountainous region subject to flash forest fires.
 Therefore Fire officers who routinely patrol and have local knowledge of the area were tasked to drive the tracks, visit empty properties to look for the missing girl. Additionally the fire brigade used a boat to visually inspect the surface water of the lake.

 Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

 In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

 Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

 This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

 McCann's Apartment.

 The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
 opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
 Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
 Murat's House and Garden.

 The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
 A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
 Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
 Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
 This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
 An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


 Page 2228 :

 Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

 These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

 Murat's Vehicles.

 All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
 examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

 Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

 This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
 This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
 Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

 An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

 Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

 The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach. This would be


 Page 2229 :

 a considerable time and cost undertaking and should be weighed in the absence of specific intelligence.

 Search Duration.

 If all the described assets were deployed it would be likely all assets would complete their searches within one week.


« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:31:46 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #205 on: June 16, 2014, 01:31:44 AM »
<< CLIP>> It all changed re dogs alerts.



Quite.

But that is not the point.  You seem to be affirming that no searches were undertaken around the church either prior to the Smith sighting or in the immediate aftermath.  Despite public works involving trenches being dug in the area.
Don't you find that reprehensible if true?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #206 on: June 16, 2014, 02:07:56 AM »
There were reports there was going to be and then Amaral was removed and rebelo took over and followed a different line of inquiry.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pegasus

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #207 on: June 16, 2014, 02:11:15 AM »
This is not in the published files - but if you look at exactly where the man with child was, on northside pavement of Rua 25, when witness ASmith saw him - that building he is next to - Mr Amaral's team did search in there and garden too .
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 02:12:50 AM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #208 on: June 16, 2014, 02:22:37 AM »
... down Rua 25 de Abril ...
Quote from: (Statement of witness A.S)
She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended the street via the stairs OR if he continued via the 25 of Abril street.
Two possibilities, with the word "or" in between, according to the person who was there.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 02:25:56 AM by pegasus »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #209 on: June 16, 2014, 12:41:13 PM »
Two possibilities, with the word "or" in between, according to the person who was there.



That is the foolish way - imagine if he passed the Smith family there on that brightly lit narrow path. They would have put Smithman away as he would be easily recognised in the light. The street to the church was dark and he could see ahead if people were there or not and could cross the road if necessary to avoid them. That's the way a person who didn't know the area would use IMO so he headed towards the church.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:00:50 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.