Amaral's body in a fridge theory common to both Joana and Madeleine?

[Redblossom]

Without access to the photos, there is no way of knowing what this "refrigeration unit" actually was. Is there anything to indicate that there was a freezer unit and a separate fridge? I.e. two separate units? I haven't found anything to that effect.

Why does it matter?

"Arca" translates to chest, trunk......and "deep freezer" normally denotes a freezer unit as opposed to freezer part of a fridge....

[Benice]

A three-drawer freezer would seem to be a standard sized unit capable of sitting under a worktop.

If so  - then that is the same as my 3-drawer freezer - and I can assure you no way could you get a 6 yr old child's 'cut up' body in it.   And the idea that cutting up a body without the proper butchers 'tools 'designed for that purpose could be achieved in 30 mins is preposterous IMO.

[Carana]

Why does it matter?

"Arca" translates to chest, trunk......and "deep freezer" normally denotes a freezer unit as opposed to freezer part of a fridge....

I find that it matters. It's not clear what an "arca" actually means in context. Is it an "arca frigorífica" (a fridge - which may well have a freezer section as most modern ones do) or an "arca congeladora" (freezer)?

[Redblossom]

I find that it matters. It's not clear what an "arca" actually means in context. Is it an "arca frigorífica" (a fridge - which may well have a freezer section as most modern ones do) or an "arca congeladora" (freezer)?

I imagine your reasons for asking lean to the gruesome details, so I will take my leave.......

[Carana]

I imagine your reasons for asking lean to the gruesome details, so I will take my leave.......

No, they don't. I'm trying to work out what may or may not be true in this case.

What's gruesome in terms of what was found in this "arca"? A speck of blood found on a panel of a drawer. That's it.

Good heavens, any one of us could have put shopping in a fridge or freezer with a nicked finger.. How would that constitute a smoking gun?

[Redblossom]

No, they don't. I'm trying to work out what may or may not be true in this case.

What's gruesome in terms of what was found in this "arca"? A speck of blood found on a panel of a drawer. That's it.

Good heavens, any one of us could have put shopping in a fridge or freezer with a nicked finger.. How would that constitute a smoking gun?

Good heavens, how can you rewrite "leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer" into a "speck of blood" is beyond me......

[Carana]

Good heavens, how can you rewrite "leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer" into a "speck of blood" is beyond me......

Was the blood identified?

[Redblossom]

Was the blood identified?

Why are you changing the goalposts?

If you want to discuss the details of the case, the other thread is down there>>>>>>>

[Carana]

Why are you changing the goalposts?

If you want to discuss the details of the case, the other thread is down there>>>>>>>

I'm not changing goalposts. I'm asking what this "arca" actually was. Fridge, freezer, combo and what the forensic results actually were. 

[Mr Gray]

Good heavens, how can you rewrite "leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer" into a "speck of blood" is beyond me......

 and how do they know it was Joannas blood...the answer is they dont

[Mr Gray]

Joana Cipriano was an eight-year-old Portuguese girl who disappeared from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, in the Algarve, on 12 September 2004. She was last seen buying provisions in a local grocers shop.  After a long and difficult investigation, headed by Chief-Inspector Gonçalo Amaral, Leonor Cipriano and her brother were accused of murdering the eight-year-old child.

The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother's refrigerator.  Her mother justified those samples of blood admitting she had beaten Joana, for some reason, she was hurt and received a blooded nose.

Controversially, the police later extracted a confession from both her mother and her uncle. Her uncle confessed to having beaten her up after which she stood "quiet on the floor". He said he cut his niece's body in small pieces, put her in a fridge box, then put her inside an old car that was taken to Spain to be crushed and burned. When he was asked if he had sexually abused his niece he said in the presence of his lawyer "I did not harm her, I only killed her".

 As I understand both confessions were extracted via torture or the threat of torture

[Carana]

and how do they know it was Joannas blood...the answer is they dont

I'm not aware of any traces of blood anywhere that were proven to be Joana's, let alone any other forensic evidence that could help to establish what happened to her.

[Carana]

P: It sounds so unbelievable, the possibility that a body was placed on a cliff, or in any other area on the beach, and then removed and transported in a rental car.

GA: The corpse couldn't have remained there all the time. It's impossible.

JP: So where was it taken next?

GA: If we take into account that, if we consider the traces that were found in the car boot…

JP: … which are in fact…

GA: … which are in fact from the little girl. In order to justify that bodily fluid as the lab says, it could only have been preserved and conserved in the cold because otherwise it would have been…

JP: That means that…

GA: … in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it's a hypothesis. Therefore it's a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen… There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren't able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it's also a bit complicated because you have to understand it's a tourist area and often it's not known who the apartment belongs to.

JP: Of course, of course…

GA: Who lives there, for how long they live there, so all of that was being worked upon. To try to understand the support…

JP: If someone discovered a deep freezer in the area and…

GA: If it was actually a deep freezer, it doesn't exist anymore now.


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/09/little-girl-died-in-that-apartment.html

[Carana]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html

"The cadaver was frozen"

Correio da Manhã - What do you think happened to the body?

Gonçalo Amaral – Everything indicated that the body, after having been at a certain location, was moved into another location by car, twenty something days later. With the residues that were found inside the car, the little girl had to have been transported inside it.

How can you state that?

Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk's right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it's the only way to explain what happened there.

[Benita]

im curious to know the size of the fridge in 5a ...would be greatful for any help finding a pic of the fridge ...