Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back

[scipio_usmc]

When it was discussed on here last year I thought the burns could have been caused by something like a blunt steel poker or similar tool/rod, which had been preheated through the filler hole in the top left hand hot plate of the AGA. It was coal/coke-fired and said to have been lit that night. But it might have been easier for the killer to feel for a radial or neck pulse rather than go to the trouble of heating anything for use as a prod to test if someone was still alive.

I believe White House Farm was only arable at the time, so animals like cattle or pigs weren't raised, thus unlikely that they had a cattle prod or stun-gun. Someone may correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Tasers were only given a trial run here in April 2003, then introduced fully in 2004. Doubt if anything like that existed in Britain in 1985 or before.

A slight pulse can be missed. If you want to be sure someone is dead do something that causes pain.

My intent was to demonstrate what an electrical burn looks like. You never know if a cattle prod or stun gun of some variey had been obtained.  Highlighting the different types of burns and sources just makes it all the more difficult to try to figure out what caused the marks without actually testing the wounds.

There is no way they are scars so were inflicted either at the time of the murders or not too long before.   I still think it is rather likely they were inflicted during the murders but there is no way to say for sure. The variables though make it impossible to ever know what caused them and even if we knew it would not prove who the killer was.

Even if it could be proven the marks were made by the rifle sans suppresor after it was heated that still would not change a thing.  It doesn't establish Nevill was shot san's suppressor. The suppressor was removed from the gun and he could have been struck with it after it was removed and put away. In the meantime if he was not shot with the silencer that means the blood was definitely Sheila's blood type not a mixute of June and Nevill's blood so instead of helping the defense it is worse.

The goal of the DNA evidence was also to try to establish the blood was June and Nevill's.  To say he wasn't shot with the silencer undercuts the DNA claims. 

So even if the marks could establish what the appeal lawyers wanted it would not have helped chip away at what actually convicted Jerey.  At any rate the marks can't prove whether the rifle had the suppressor on when it shot anyone or who he killer was.  Unless there were a way to prove they were made during the murders, Nevill was standing at the time he received these wounds and a suspect was too short to inflict them so someone taller had to do it there is simply nothing these marks hold the key to.

     

[baxterdavid]

The top mark looks as though it were made by something different from the two below. It's almost lip shaped. I can see a similarity between the two lower marks and the .22 rifle wound.

[scipio_usmc]

The top mark looks as though it were made by something different from the two below. It's almost lip shaped. I can see a similarity between the two lower marks and the .22 rifle wound.

If there were holes in the center all would look like bullet wounds.  They are not perfectly round always.  The darkness of the middle almost looks like holes instead of scabs but obviously that is just the photo shading etc. 

They look alot like electical burns. Whatever they are we will never know unless Jeremy decides to talk but there is sooner a chance of hell freezing over than that unless some rich person tells him as long as he is spending his life behind bars he might as well let the secret out and in turn he will get a nice deposit in his prisoner account.   

 

[Passer-by]

To me the marks look like burns and I was fairly convinced by a YouTube video of testing ballistics on a pigskin to show they were the heated barrel of a gun without a moderator.

I wondered what you all thought of the possibility that the reason NB telephone Jeremy and not the police could be because he was doing so at gunpoint? 

Having read up a little on people who commit Familicide it seems a frequent trait is for the perpetrator to even lie in wait for, lure or collect extra members of the family so they can kill them all.

http://hunteremkay.com/2012/04/f-is-for-family-annihilator-killer/

Here is one from last May:  the killer went to another house and collected his niece, took her back to the house where unbeknownst to her he had killed the rest of the family, and shot her as well as himself.  Apparently guns are used in something like 95% of familcides because it's possible to kill so many people quickly.  Certainly it was a weekly occurance in the news when I lived in Joburg - they would often kill in laws and relatives who turned up and perhaps the first cop who arrived, but the domestic staff always seemed to escape without injury.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3079255/Five-people-shot-dead-Arizona-home-quadruple-murder-suicide.html

this might explain the burns, the reason he called his son, the call ending abruptly and may add up with the theory that SC shot herself several hours later - perhaps she was lying in wait for him in the kitchen and when she realised JB was not alone but with police, she prepared herself for suicide by going upstairs and reading a passage from the Bible, then shot herself when she heard them battering the door with a sledgehammer - the noise of which would have covered the sound of the gun.  It seems to me that the blood spatters on her night dress and what we now know about the first wound, she is most likely to have received both wounds close together so perhaps shot herself ineptly, pulled her hand up to her throat (the first wound seems to have spatter around it which suggests she was exhaling through it) then realising it hadn't worked, automatically shot herself again with success.  I don't see why JB would have shot her twice:  all he had to do was either wait or gently pinched her nostrils closed.

So:  burns because called JB at gunpoint, anyone?

[Holly Goodhead]

To me the marks look like burns and I was fairly convinced by a YouTube video of testing ballistics on a pigskin to show they were the heated barrel of a gun without a moderator.

I wondered what you all thought of the possibility that the reason NB telephone Jeremy and not the police could be because he was doing so at gunpoint? 

Having read up a little on people who commit Familicide it seems a frequent trait is for the perpetrator to even lie in wait for, lure or collect extra members of the family so they can kill them all.

http://hunteremkay.com/2012/04/f-is-for-family-annihilator-killer/

Here is one from last May:  the killer went to another house and collected his niece, took her back to the house where unbeknownst to her he had killed the rest of the family, and shot her as well as himself.  Apparently guns are used in something like 95% of familcides because it's possible to kill so many people quickly.  Certainly it was a weekly occurance in the news when I lived in Joburg - they would often kill in laws and relatives who turned up and perhaps the first cop who arrived, but the domestic staff always seemed to escape without injury.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3079255/Five-people-shot-dead-Arizona-home-quadruple-murder-suicide.html

this might explain the burns, the reason he called his son, the call ending abruptly and may add up with the theory that SC shot herself several hours later - perhaps she was lying in wait for him in the kitchen and when she realised JB was not alone but with police, she prepared herself for suicide by going upstairs and reading a passage from the Bible, then shot herself when she heard them battering the door with a sledgehammer - the noise of which would have covered the sound of the gun.  It seems to me that the blood spatters on her night dress and what we now know about the first wound, she is most likely to have received both wounds close together so perhaps shot herself ineptly, pulled her hand up to her throat (the first wound seems to have spatter around it which suggests she was exhaling through it) then realising it hadn't worked, automatically shot herself again with success.  I don't see why JB would have shot her twice:  all he had to do was either wait or gently pinched her nostrils closed.

So:  burns because called JB at gunpoint, anyone?

Blimey Passer-by I can see Scipio and myself have some competition on our hands in terms of lengthy posts 

The testing carried out during 2012 by Philip Boyce, ballistics expert, showed that the rifle alone did not get hot enough to burn the skin.  Whether the tests were on a like for like basis and dead pig skin is capable of simulating dead/alive human skin I would not like to say.  One of my frustrations about this whole case is that it requires a multi-disciplinary approach which it has never had. 

The police surgeon Dr Ian Craig certified the deaths at circa 8.10am and confirmed they could have occurred at any time during the previous night.  Had SC have taken her own life shortly before the raid team broke in or after they broke in then it would have been apparent to him and he would say as much. 

[Myster]

The testing carried out during 2012 by Philip Boyce, ballistics expert, showed that the rifle alone did not get hot enough to burn the skin.  Whether the tests were on a like for like basis and dead pig skin is capable of simulating dead/alive human skin I would not like to say.  One of my frustrations about this whole case is that it requires a multi-disciplinary approach which it has never had.

Malcolm Fletcher must have carried out earlier pre-trial tests for the defence with the actual Anschutz and P-H, because he says that no matter how many times the rifle was fired, the barrel and moderator never got hot enough to cause burns. It only became warm and could be easily grabbed with no ill effect (p.193).

[Holly Goodhead]

Malcolm Fletcher must have carried out earlier pre-trial tests for the defence with the actual Anschutz and P-H, because he says that no matter how many times the rifle was fired, the barrel and moderator never got hot enough to cause burns. It only became warm and could be easily grabbed with no ill effect (p.193).

Yet Dr V disagrees!  Also page 193. 

As you know I was of the opinion that the burns didn't occur on the night of the murders, due mainly to Dr V not mentioning them in reports where he was asked to comment on injuries NB sustained other than gunshot.

I think its really important to establish how these burns occurred.  Malcolm Fletcher for the prosecution and ?Major Mead? for the defence seemed to just give up!

I can't see SC or JB inflicting the burns deliberately.  Your hot casing theory seems the most logical if the burns run vertically.  I cant see how the case could roll horizontally.  If it landed on NB's neck tucked in his PJ top and the poor man's head and shoulders toppled forward the case might have rolled down his back but held firm against his PJ top hence the 3 burns.   

[Myster]

Yet Dr V disagrees!  Also page 193. 

As you know I was of the opinion that the burns didn't occur on the night of the murders, due mainly to Dr V not mentioning them in reports where he was asked to comment on injuries NB sustained other than gunshot.

I think its really important to establish how these burns occurred.  Malcolm Fletcher for the prosecution and ?Major Mead? for the defence seemed to just give up!

I can't see SC or JB inflicting the burns deliberately.  Your hot casing theory seems the most logical if the burns run vertically.  I cant see how the case could roll horizontally.  If it landed on NB's neck tucked in his PJ top and the poor man's head and shoulders toppled forward the case might have rolled down his back but held firm against his PJ top hence the 3 burns.

The marks run vertically as in the photos at the start of this thread, with the largest oval-shaped one at the top nearest to the head. Vanezis states such on p.192.  Not sure whether the flat circular surface of a .22 casing end would be large enough to create burns that size though - the rim flange diameter might only be 6-7mm, whereas the marks are larger. I'm surprised CAL didn't question Vanezis about this possibilty.

[Anna]

Cattle prods are easy for a farmer to obtain as are taser guns. 
This poor chap bought one at a farmers fair, not realizing that Tazer guns are now illegal... Damn cruel to treat animals in such a way IMO.
http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/dad-bought-stun-gun-farming-4510555

[Passer-by]

Is Dr V still alive?

[Myster]

Is Dr V still alive?

He was interviewed by CAL recently, has his own website and also appeared on Desert Island Discs in 2001.

http://www.petervanezis.com/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009491v

[Passer-by]

I can't help wondering how many of these professionals still think about whether with hindsight they were right.  JB's lawyers, particularly, strike me as diabolically bad.

[Holly Goodhead]

I can't help wondering how many of these professionals still think about whether with hindsight they were right.  JB's lawyers, particularly, strike me as diabolically bad.

There's little doubt in my mind that in the not too distant future this case will make the UK the laughing stock of the world.  It will cause huge reputational damage.

[Passer-by]

There's little doubt in my mind that in the not too distant future this case will make the UK the laughing stock of the world.  It will cause huge reputational damage.

This is what makes me uneasy:  I can't help feeling that the onus is on the prosecution and he should have been acquitted at trial even if he did it.  I'm also uneasy at anyone having a whole-life tariff having any sort of file that is not publicly scrutible:  the case brings our justice system into disrepute whether he is innocent or not.

[Myster]

There's little doubt in my mind that in the not too distant future this case will make the UK the laughing stock of the world.  It will cause huge reputational damage.

You're a doubting Thomasina! 

Not if Carol Ann Lee and Paul Harrison have anything to do with it... they both think he's guilty as sin! 

Right... Lunchtime.