The trial of Leonor and João Cipriano for the murder of Joana.

[John]

So no Evidence, only Opinions.  And not even unanimous.

And what's free about admission under torture?

For the last time please stop posting falsehoods Eleanor.  Leonor freely confessed to the murder the very first time she came before the magistrates which was weeks before the torture incident.  Try and look at the events objectively as Anna and Carana have done.

I haven't had the time to look through this entire thread yet but I must commend the research so far.

However, in the final analysis, Leonor did freely confess to bludgeoning Joana's head against the house wall in what can only be assumed was some sort of spontaneous rage over some event.  It has been alleged that she saw some sort of incestual sexual encounter between her mother and her uncle and also suggested that the encounter was over the measly €10 change from the shopping which Joana probably wanted for the fair.  None of this can be proven however.

Maybe someone will explain to me why an innocent mother would admit to such a horrible act if innocent?

[Eleanor]

The PJ suggested that because Leonor was a peasant then the house must have been dirty, so any cleaning would have been for the purpose of covering up a dead body.  Although there is no evidence to suggest that the house was ever in fact dirty.

Personally, I only ever clean my house once a year, whether it needs it or not, although I did make some attempt to clean up the blood when I bled copiously from a cut to my thumb.  Yer, really, I bled all over the place for at least half an hour.  But I bet I left some residue littered about from trying to staunch the flow with many pieces of kitchen roll.
This of course will have been diffused somewhat by the bleach I use on the tiled floor when I do get around to cleaning.

PS.  I am a peasant.

[Carana]

For the last time please stop posting falsehoods Eleanor.  Leonor freely confessed to the murder the very first time she came before the magistrates which was weeks before the torture incident.  Try and look at the events objectively as Anna and Carana have done.

I haven't had the time to look through this entire thread yet but I must commend the research so far.

However, in the final analysis, Leonor did freely confess to bludgeoning Joana's head against the house wall in what can only be assumed was some sort of spontaneous rage over some event.  It has been alleged that she saw some sort of incestual sexual encounter between her mother and her uncle and also suggested that the encounter was over the measly €10 change from the shopping which Joana probably wanted for the fair.  None of this can be proven however.

Maybe someone will explain to me why an innocent mother would admit to such a horrible act if innocent?

There could be lots of reasons, John, depending on the interrogation methods used... You have your conviction, which is fine by me. But what makes you think that intimidation and/or beatings couldn't make someone "voluntarily" "confess" to something that they hadn't actually done?

[Eleanor]

For the last time please stop posting falsehoods Eleanor.  Leonor freely confessed to the murder the very first time she came before the magistrates which was weeks before the torture incident.  Try and look at the events objectively as Anna and Carana have done.

I haven't had the time to look through this entire thread yet but I must commend the research so far.

However, in the final analysis, Leonor did freely confess to bludgeoning Joana's head against the house wall in what can only be assumed was some sort of spontaneous rage over some event.  It has been alleged that she saw some sort of incestual sexual encounter between her mother and her uncle and also suggested that the encounter was over the measly €10 change from the shopping which Joana probably wanted for the fair.  None of this can be proven however.

Maybe someone will explain to me why an innocent mother would admit to such a horrible act if innocent?

Shocked and horrified.  How can you post such falsehoods of which you admit there is no proof. 
So now it is the change from 10 Euros?

You should be ashamed of yourself on a Forum that purports to Justice.

Shut me up by all means.  I wouldn't really care.  But so long as I am allowed to post on this Forum then I am going to go on saying that this was a Miscarriage of Justice.

You of all people could have had a really good one here.

[John]

There could be lots of reasons, John, depending on the interrogation methods used... You have your conviction, which is fine by me. But what makes you think that intimidation and/or beatings couldn't make someone "voluntarily" "confess" to something that they hadn't actually done?

She was a free woman up until that hearing and could return home every night.  There was no evidence of any beatings until much later.

[John]

Shocked and horrified.  How can you post such falsehoods of which you admit there is no proof. 
So now it is the change from 10 Euros?

You should be ashamed of yourself on a Forum that purports to Justice.

Shut me up by all means.  I wouldn't really care.  But so long as I am allowed to post on this Forum then I am going to go on saying that this was a Miscarriage of Justice.

You of all people could have had a really good one here.

If you continue to post false information Eleanor that's exactly what will happen...your choice.

Its facts and evidence we are interested in and not semantics.

[Eleanor]

She was a free woman up until that hearing and could return home every night.  There was no evidence of any beatings until much later.

No visible evidence, you mean.  And I have never seen this interview, so let's have a cite.  Thank you.

[Eleanor]

If you continue to post false information Eleanor that's exactly what will happen...your choice.

Its facts and evidence we are interested in and not semantics.

What false information have I posted?  My choice is to say what I think.  Only you can ban me.  So the choice is yours.

[Carana]

She was a free woman up until that hearing and could return home every night.  There was no evidence of any beatings until much later.

You mentioned this before. I haven't found anything to substantiate that. Where did you get that from?

I have found that the other 7 arguidos in this case were allowed to go home under caution, but I haven't found anything to substantiate that Leonor and João had that privilege as of 21 Sept.

[John]

What false information have I posted?  My choice is to say what I think.  Only you can ban me.  So the choice is yours.

Members get banned for serious breaches of the forum rules which everyone has to abide by. 

You have inferred that the beating came before the first confession which is untrue. The beatings came weeks later.

Leonor was a free woman up until the day she and her brother João were brought before the first magistrate.  On the basis of her confession in court she was remanded in custody while João was released on bail.  He was rearrested a few days later and also remanded.

[John]

You mentioned this before. I haven't found anything to substantiate that. Where did you get that from?

I have found that the other 7 arguidos in this case were allowed to go home under caution, but I haven't found anything to substantiate that Leonor and João had that privilege as of 21 Sept.

Its all there in the daily rags.  Leonor was allowed home up until her first appearance before the examining magistrate.  She had a police guard outside her house supposedly for her own protection.

I suggest you read the on-line back issues of the Correio da Manhã.

[Carana]

Its all there in the daily rags.  Leonor was allowed home up until her first appearance before the examining magistrate.  She a police guard outside her house supposedly for her own protection.

Could you provide the links to the articles in the daily rags in question? I thought that we were supposed to try to back up assertions as far as possible.

[Anna]

29 3 2005

The 12 September, Joana Cipriano, eight years ago, she went out of the house in order to buy two cans of tuna and a package of milk. Never more to be seen. Belonging to a poor family, the neighbours as soon as they suggested that the mother would have beaten who having stolen, in sections, two euros.
In a first phase, the Judicial Police in Portimao has admitted that it could be possible that the mother had sold her to a German couple, by which, contrary to what they should have done, not researched the places where the child lived, only those having searched, and badly, ten days after. At 23, the mother of the child, Leonor Cipriano, was prey, having been held, on the following day, in detention of Odemira, where it was a preventive detention.


For those who do not know, this means that the judge considered, not that she was guilty, but that could well undermine the police investigations. The law prescribes that this type of prison may not stay, in a first phase, more than six months, for which the 18 of this month, the judge of the Court of Criminal Appeals of Portimao, after having returned to interrogate Leonor Cipriano, decided to keep her held here, on the basis that there was the possibility of leakage, disturbance of investigation, or social alarm, and novelty, which had arisen from some evidence.

http://pontedosor.blogspot.co.uk/2005/03/onde-est-joana-cipriano_29.html

[Eleanor]

Its all there in the daily rags.  Leonor was allowed home up until her first appearance before the examining magistrate.  She a police guard outside her house supposedly for her own protection.

Daily Rags?  I see.  Have you not learned anything about Portugal, Secrecy and Daily Rags?

"Xcuse me, Your Honour.  The Daily Rag said it, so it must be true."

If Leonor needed protection then it was from Daily Rags and Public Opinion.

[John]

Here, I will even help you out yet again since most members cannot read Portuguese.


Even before she was committed to prison, Leonor Cipriano spoke, admitted, confessed to accidentally killing her daughter.  No silence on that occasion!

Extract from the Correio da Manhã on 26 September 2004.



Mother Confesses to death of Daughter by Accident.

Several hours of questioning culminating in the confession of the crime. First João Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of her niece after her mother Joan admitted responsibility for the murder committed against a minor, on the night of the 12th of this month, in the house where they lived in Figueira.

An accidental death , the woman claimed before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão , Ana Soares , who ordered the arrest of the woman and told the man at liberty with the obligation to report daily to authorities.
The coercive measures were only known from about 3:00 a.m. early yesterday morning , at a time when dozens of popular revolt were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day ) .
According found the Morning Post , the uncle of the murdered girl , João Cipriano , who was the first to be heard by the judge (he was being interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30 ) , will initially admitted crime , but later , when statements were passed in writing , the individual eventually point the finger to his sister , the mother of Joan .
"It is with my sister " - was the expression used countless times by the individual when faced with issues related to the way they had the murder of the child , referring to all the explanations Leonor Cipriano case .
João Cipriano have just recognized that helped Sister ( request ) to rid the body of Joan , after the girl was killed . Ensured that the body was placed in a land close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where , because " it was dark " .
However , Joana's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00 , came to confess to the murder of her daughter . The woman however justified that it was an accident , saying that she had given a slap to the child who had hit her head on a wall, falling unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said to have been bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter , so decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag . She then asked the help of her brother to dispose of the body of her own daughter , which she said came to pass at a site in the vicinity of the house . Like her uncle , the mother of Joan also have apologized to the dark, as well as the state of panic that would meet , not knowing where to put her daughter's body . This is , incidentally , the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to PJ about where laid the body prove completely false .
Lately , Joana's mother is taking the idea of finding psychologically affected with the case , verifying that often " says nothing to something," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation .
After hearing the two suspects , Judge of Criminal gathered to decide on enforcement measures to apply , calling to his presence the mother and uncle of Joana around 1:30 a.m. . It was then reported that Leonor Cipriano would be in custody and João Cipriano who would freely through the term of identity and residence and daily presentations authorities ( GNR Silves ).

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-confessa-morte-da-filha-por-acidente