The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.

[ferryman]

Gilet:

We are told in the reports that the PJ were dependent on the advice of Harrison and Grime for the conduct of the geophysical and dog searches and I am appalled that neither of them questioned such a basic flaw in procedure.

Harrison (indirectly) did, by describing both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.

[John]

There is no doubt that the repeated laying out of the clothes and the way they were handled was farcical.  I just wonder what control if any the two British experts had on events?

[TTSOFAFM]

I don't know when the training video was filmed, but it is obviously normal practice....
No rubber gloves were used when training and using skeletal samples?……Could this not cause X contamination of trainer’s clothing etc?
Is it a  possibility that further X contamination may occur during an investigation whilst innocently, touching and brushing past articles, while wearing garments, used in training, without the use of protective gloves ?

Video around at around 1 min.15 secs onwards

Yes it could Anna.

Thank you for posting that video.  One thing I have noticed though that video was made in 2008.  One year after Martin Grime retired.  When posters mention about the dog going into 'working mode' when an officer is in their uniform, I can see the logic and understand how the dog's mind works.  It is just like when you get the lead out for a walk, they associate lead with walk.  So it is understandable that a dog would associate his master in uniform as they are going to work.

[gilet]

There is no doubt that the repeated laying out of the clothes and the way they were handled was farcical.  I just wonder what control if any the two British experts had on events?

Harrison and Grime were supposed to be advising the PJ on these unfamiliar techniques of EVRD dogs and Geophysics and were clearly present watching the events unfold in that gym. I am somewhat shocked that they did not at least comment on the effect of bundling clothes together in that way.

[gilet]

Gilet:

We are told in the reports that the PJ were dependent on the advice of Harrison and Grime for the conduct of the geophysical and dog searches and I am appalled that neither of them questioned such a basic flaw in procedure.

Harrison (indirectly) did, by describing both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.

Being a professional of the standing he has and Grime has, perhaps one or other should have been more explicit in  condemning  such appalling handling of the evidence. Just my opinion, of course.

[Anna]

Yes it could Anna.

Thank you for posting that video.  One thing I have noticed though that video was made in 2008.  One year after Martin Grime retired.  When posters mention about the dog going into 'working mode' when an officer is in their uniform, I can see the logic and understand how the dog's mind works.  It is just like when you get the lead out for a walk, they associate lead with walk.  So it is understandable that a dog would associate his master in uniform as they are going to work.

Thank you for your answer I think this is the follow up of the last video.....

[Cariad]

Yes it could Anna.

Thank you for posting that video.  One thing I have noticed though that video was made in 2008.  One year after Martin Grime retired.  When posters mention about the dog going into 'working mode' when an officer is in their uniform, I can see the logic and understand how the dog's mind works.  It is just like when you get the lead out for a walk, they associate lead with walk.  So it is understandable that a dog would associate his master in uniform as they are going to work.

Should a different lead be used, for example, a dog accustomed to a choke chain be put in a harness instead, would the dog refuse to leave the house?

I'm sure that if you have the tiniest iota of sense you will recognise that a uniform/ lead/ dog walking shoes/ whatever, is the first cue to the dog that something is about to occur and if that cue is missing, the next cue will be used to alert the dogs.

[Carana]

Yes they all came from one box. I watched the video years ago and checked today.
First he passes most of the clothes without stopping or alerting to anything. When he arrived at the pillows he was called back, next he runs to the "Children's shorts, blue" (7) and starts barking, then to "A childrens T-Shirt, red" (3) then to "One pair of woman's trousers" (1) and next to what I think is the "One woman's top, white" (2)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm

Welcome, Teecah.

I agree that the alerts seem somewhat bizarre. The tiny blue pair of shorts (the first thing he throws up in the air and barks at) isn't on the list. He didn't throw up a woman's blouse, but that is on the list. If the nuzzling is the cue, then the grey/green man's T-shirt isn't on it, either.

Grime didn't have the notes on what he was supposed to have reacted to, the PJ did. How they came to their conclusion remains a mystery.

[Carana]

Harrison and Grime were supposed to be advising the PJ on these unfamiliar techniques of EVRD dogs and Geophysics and were clearly present watching the events unfold in that gym. I am somewhat shocked that they did not at least comment on the effect of bundling clothes together in that way.

Is it normal forensic practice to stuff all potential evidence in a particular room into a single box?

[Jean-Pierre]

Is it normal forensic practice to stuff all potential evidence in a particular room into a single box?

The trail of evidence is crucial.  This sort of handling would render any evidence gained worthless in a court. 

[pegasus]

Welcome, Teecah.

I agree that the alerts seem somewhat bizarre. The tiny blue pair of shorts (the first thing he throws up in the air and barks at) isn't on the list. He didn't throw up a woman's blouse, but that is on the list. If the nuzzling is the cue, then the grey/green man's T-shirt isn't on it, either.

Grime didn't have the notes on what he was supposed to have reacted to, the PJ did. How they came to their conclusion remains a mystery.

I tend to agree with you.
It would have been better to place each item in an individual bag before placing in box.
And to have the handler state exactly yes this item was alerted to, no this item was not alerted to.

However it may turn out not too important exactly which clothing items were alerted to.
IMO all the clothing items alerted to (whether one chooses items listed, or items thrown in the air, or items nuzzled) are simply items which were in a pile in a cupboard, and were not being worn at the time when some of the items in the pile came into varying degrees of contact.

[pathfinder73]

Eddie threw the blue shorts away and bark alerted at the red plane top. Eddie is standing over the red top barking his head off. Did he do that to the blue shorts? The red plane top was a positive alert and so were the pants.

[pegasus]

A photo of a pile of clothing etc in a cupboard in a missing child case in USA

If hypothetically you had taken all those clothing items (USA case) and let an EVRD examine them individually he/she would have alerted to some of the items IMO.

The alerted items (USA case) would simply be the items which by chance in the pile (USA case) happened to come into direct contact with the source IMO. The alerted items (USA case) would not incriminate their individual owners IMO.

[Silkywhiskers]

Cadaverine does NOT transfer itself.

Cadaverine is particulate, those particles do not "move" of their own free will.

They stay where they are deposited.

There should have been zero alerts. 

How anyone can watch a video of a dog and his handler for 15 minutes, then pronounce what that dog found or alerted to, is beyond me.

I'm not the handler. 

Eddie was NEVER handled by anyone but Grime because ONLY GRIME COULD INTERPRET HIS ALERTS.

The video we see is heavily edited.  The work of Grime and his dogs went on for days not half an hour.

[Fern]

Unless I have misunderstood your post, your claims are totally at odds with what Martin Grime states.

Extract from Vol 1X page 2479

'Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in
numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any
other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.'