Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.

[John]

according to mrs fenn....

So in your opinion she invented this event and the conversation with her friend that followed it?

[pegasus]

according to mrs fenn....

So in your opinion she invented this event and the conversation with her friend that followed it?

It would be remarkably easy for the SY/PJ team even now to establish with certainty which night Mrs F heard the 75 minutes crying.
From Mrs F's statement "That night she contacted a friend called E*** G***, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation".
It seems reasonable to assume that the witness being that age would have a landline phone.
So all PJ need to do now is ask the landline company (Portugal Telecom) to check records for PF's landline phone back then and find the call shortly after 11pm from PF to EG.
It will either be on Tue 1st, or on Wed 2nd, that will decide the date beyond question. (My bet is Wed 2nd BTW).

[pegasus]

Re PF date: Tue 1st is total mismatch to another statement, Wed 2nd is good fit, JIMO.

[pathfinder73]

Re PF date: Tue 1st is total mismatch to another statement, Wed 2nd is good fit, JIMO.

So you believe the PJ wouldn't have checked the time and date of that phone call?

[pegasus]

So you believe the PJ wouldn't have checked the time and date of that phone call?

Yes.
I believe KM's statements, and from that perspective Tue 1st just doesn't fit. 

[icabodcrane]

Yes.
I believe KM's statements, and from that perspective Tue 1st just doesn't fit.

So you are  rejecting evidence on the basis that it  'does not fit'  with the McCanns' version of events ?

I see 

[pegasus]

So you are  rejecting evidence on the basis that it  'does not fit'  with the McCanns' version of events ?
I see

I deduced Wed to be more likely based on PF's and KM's accounts. I might be wrong, but Wed was IMO the late night and I can't make Tue work.

[pathfinder73]

I deduced Wed to be more likely based on PF's and KM's accounts. I might be wrong, but Wed was IMO the late night and I can't make Tue work.

So you don't think it's strange that KM made about 5 phone calls just before the crying started for her daddy at 10:30 on Tuesday that was reported by Pamela Fenn? Is that something else to just sweep under the carpet.

[pegasus]

So you don't think it's strange that KM made about 5 phone calls just before the crying started for her daddy at 10:30 on Tuesday that was reported by Pamela Fenn? Is that something else to just sweep under the carpet.

As I said I think the crying PF heard was on Wed night, I don't see how Tue is possible.
But looking at your hypothesis that it was Tue:
If IYO the phone use preceded the crying, that proves the crying cannot have caused the phone use.
So that leaves you with trying to explain how on earth phone use can cause crying to follow after it IYO?

[pathfinder73]

As I said I think the crying PF heard was on Wed night, I don't see how Tue is possible.
But looking at your hypothesis that it was Tue:
If IYO the phone use preceded the crying, that proves the crying cannot have caused the phone use.
So that leaves you with trying to explain how on earth phone use can cause crying to follow after it IYO?

Simple if she was making these calls inside 5A starting at 10:15 they may have woken Madeleine up.

[icabodcrane]

Well I don't think its realistic to propose so many people lying.
Actually I would say that all the witness statements, where they directly describe the period from kidsclub tea to GNR arrival, are true and moreover omit nothing crucial.

Yet you don't think Mrs Fenn told the truth

...   for no other reason than she contradicts what the McCanns say happened

Cherry-picking  statements  to  fit an agenda/theory   is a pointless exercise 

[pegasus]

Yet you don't think Mrs Fenn told the truth

...   for no other reason than she contradicts what the McCanns say happened

Cherry-picking  statements  to  fit an agenda/theory   is a pointless exercise

IMO the date got written down wrong at PF police interview.
PF is 100% truthful IMO, it is only the date that got written down which I am questioning.
Not a deduction reached lightly, it is only because I see no way to make Tue work.
And I might be wrong of course.

[icabodcrane]

IMO the date got written down wrong at PF police interview.
PF is 100% truthful IMO, it is only the date that got written down which I am questioning.
Not a deduction reached lightly, it is only because I see no way to make Tue work.
And I might be wrong of course.

Well your 'opinion'  that the police wrote the wrong date down on Mrs Fenn's statement is  based on your  imagination,  isn it  ?   ...  I mean there is no actual  evidence  to support it

What you are doing is rejecting a witness statement  for no other reason than it does not  'fit'  with what the McCanns have claimed

[John]

So in your opinion she invented this event and the conversation with her friend that followed it?

It would be remarkably easy for the SY/PJ team even now to establish with certainty which night Mrs F heard the 75 minutes crying.
From Mrs F's statement "That night she contacted a friend called E*** G***, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation".
It seems reasonable to assume that the witness being that age would have a landline phone.
So all PJ need to do now is ask the landline company (Portugal Telecom) to check records for PF's landline phone back then and find the call shortly after 11pm from PF to EG.
It will either be on Tue 1st, or on Wed 2nd, that will decide the date beyond question. (My bet is Wed 2nd BTW).

It couldn't have been the Wednesday evening as Mrs Fenn went out to visit her friend.  In all probability this was as a direct result of and occasioned by the previous evenings annoyance.  Thursday she was with her niece and her niece's spouse.

From Pamela Fenn's statement to the Portuguese PJ.

She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.

As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

That night she contacted a friend called Edna Glyn, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.

She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.

On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit". During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times, quite upset.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

[Benice]

I deduced Wed to be more likely based on PF's and KM's accounts. I might be wrong, but Wed was IMO the late night and I can't make Tue work.

Rachael Oldfied stayed in next door to 5A all night on the 2nd.  IMO she would have heard any prolonged crying from 5A.     Also IIRC that night Gerry returned first followed by Kate, so Mrs Fenn would have heard the patio doors open twice.

I think there's a chance it may have been JT's little girl who she heard crying on the 1st as  Russell stayed in that night with her because she was feeling poorly. That would explain the 'calling for her daddy'.  The patio door opening which Mrs Fenn heard may have been JT returning from the restaurant.  There would be no need for her to go all the way round that night because Russell was there and so no need to lock the patio doors.

All IMHO.