Author Topic: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?  (Read 78503 times)

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Offline j.rob

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2014, 12:04:46 PM »
But not only she didn't call the police but she didn't dare tell this to the McCanns. Instead she told it to Rachael and to Fiona and they remain horrified and quiet up to the GNR's arrival, an hour later.

So are expected to believe that, despite Jane Tanner believing that she saw the man who abducted Madeleine, and her having told friends, this group of professionals did nothing at the time.

This makes no sense in the context of their stranger abduction theory.

It's a bit like finding out that your child has fallen into a swimming pool and watching in horror while they drown rather than jumping in and saving them.

Hmmmmm.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2014, 12:10:38 PM »
I believe it was about 11 o'clock that Mrs Fenn offered to call the police,   by then they had been called a second time.
No, Mrs Fenn offered her phone right after the end of the BBC news, 10:30. The police hadn't yet been called.
@ Colombosstogey
Mr McCann is a heart consultant, not a surgeon.

Offline Lace

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2014, 12:15:43 PM »
This is part of Matt's statement,  looks as though they didn't want to phone the police at the OC they thought she might had just walked out by herself.-


Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn't in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the restaurant, so we'd only been at the initial welcoming, that was the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because the food wasn't great there, it wasn't quite up to the MARK WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that's why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she'd have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn't know what to really say, because you can't really say, you know, it's going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it's going to be particularly awful, you know, it's going, you know, some, erm, person's got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx's got my, you know, got my daughter and she's so innocent.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2014, 12:31:35 PM »

This makes no sense in the context of their stranger abduction theory.

Why didn't the receptionist react as Mr Oldfield asked him to ? I always wondered about Mr Oldfield's words. Did he use the word "abduction" or did he not dare because he wasn't sure? I find it hard to believe that the receptionist, hearing that the shutters had been forced open, would call the children manager instead of the OC manager, John Hill.
The unjustified multiplication of intermediaries might have been a secondary effect of panic, but it remains unexplained, as the McCanns knew and claimed that Madeleine had been abducted, why the right number (112) wasn't called either by one of the group or by the receptionist (after order of John Hill), a fact that caused another delay of more than an hour.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2014, 07:20:35 PM »
I believe it was about 11 o'clock that Mrs Fenn offered to call the police,   by then they had been called a second time.

No, it was 10 30
The  only reason Km said in her book it was 11 was to cover the fct GM had told Mrs Fenn the police had already been called at 10 30 when they hadnt been
You cant  trust a rewritten history
How would KM know the detailed times of anything from that night....duh...surely not clock watching and mking notes! Whilst panicking


seriously
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 07:47:03 PM by Redblossom »

Offline sadie

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2014, 11:55:05 PM »
But not only she didn't call the police but she didn't dare tell this to the McCanns. Instead she told it to Rachael and to Fiona and they remain horrified and quiet up to the GNR's arrival, an hour later.
AnnGuedes that is an immoral comment.

As you well know if you have read the statements ... and you have, I am sure ...as you well know Jane was horrified as the realisation of what she had likely witnessed sank in.  She didn't tell Kate and Gerry cos she was trying to save them further pain.  She was sensitive to their feelings.  No reason to pile on the agony.


So would you have just barged in and blurted it all out?

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2014, 12:09:00 AM »
Interesting what j.rob is saying about the timelines, because if reports of Madeleine's disappearance were indeed given much earlier, then what happens with regard to Smithman?

Even if Tannerman is eliminated, we return to square one again - on the theory that Smithman was the abductor, which, as far as we understand, appears to be one main idea or even the main idea of SY -  with regard to the question of what he was doing between the time Madeleine was taken, and the time he was seen by the Smiths. It would only take a few minutes to walk from 5A to where the Smiths met him, so what would have happened in the mean time?

There are theories to suggest that if it was Tannerman who abducted Madeleine, and Tannerman was also Smithman, then the gap between 9.15 and ten or so could be explained by him having gone to the secluded area north of the apartment, into his own apartment, or even into the staff quarters.

But if he took Madeleine - for the sake of argument - at 9.30 or 40, it didn't take all that time to reach the Smiths; on the other hand that probably wouldn't constitute enough time to take an extended detour or soujourn somewhere else.

So how does SY's 'revelation moment' square with the idea of the disappearance being reported well before 10?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:14:05 AM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2014, 12:52:06 AM »
I believe Smithman moved Madeleine out of the apartment as soon as everyone was at the tapas bar (the safest time to do it) so an hour before he was spotted. He wasn't on the streets in the meantime - he would be long gone by the time of the Smith sighting! That is common sense so there's only one sensible answer. Smithman moved Madeleine a second time an hour later which was the earliest possible time that he could do it if he wanted to remain unsuspected.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:58:39 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2014, 01:29:53 AM »
I believe Smithman moved Madeleine out of the apartment as soon as everyone was at the tapas bar (the safest time to do it) so an hour before he was spotted. He wasn't on the streets in the meantime - he would be long gone by the time of the Smith sighting! That is common sense so there's only one sensible answer. Smithman moved Madeleine a second time an hour later which was the earliest possible time that he could do it if he wanted to remain unsuspected.

Remind me why he would have left these gaps of time, pathfinder?

Wouldn't it be far safer to work quickly?

Offline colombosstogey

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2014, 07:05:26 AM »
No, Mrs Fenn offered her phone right after the end of the BBC news, 10:30. The police hadn't yet been called.
@ Colombosstogey
Mr McCann is a heart consultant, not a surgeon.

Sorry i thought he was a heart surgeon too, usually they specialise after they have done a level of surgery etc, and everywhere i looked it said he was a surgeon. Anyway regardless he is still a doctor.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488849/Guard-Gerry-McCann-returns-work.html

Offline pathfinder73

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2014, 09:38:24 AM »
Remind me why he would have left these gaps of time, pathfinder?

Wouldn't it be far safer to work quickly?

If he was an outsider she would be moved only the once and would be long gone by the time of the Smith sighting.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:45:14 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline The Singularity

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2014, 09:43:43 AM »
Another inexplicable aspect of the McCann version of events is this. Jane Tanner claims she saw a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. At the time she did not consider this to be suspicious because Gerry had just checked on Madeleine and everything seemed to be fine.

Okay - so far so good. That is credible.

At 10pm Kate enters the apartment and finds Madeleine missing. She runs out of the apartment to raise the alarm.

Okay - odd, but let's believe everything up to this point.

This is when it gets curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.

According to Kate in her book, the Mark Warner missing child alert is not activated until 10.30pm That strikes me as a long time, given that Kate claims to 'know' that a stranger has abducted her child. Why wait half an hour to alert hotel reception. That's ages.


I don't think its odd. Kate may have suspected someone took her but other people will have advised her to wait while they search for Madeleine assuming she had gone off wandering. As I recall they all through the complex was safe so its unlikely that anyone from friends to staff would immediately assume that Madeleine had been abducted. The 30 minute wait for them to finally call in the police does sound about right after they had made a search for her in and around the apartment complex and resort.

I can't read too much into Kate's initial reaction of her believing Madeleine had been taken. It was an unreal and horrible situation to be in when the child was missing, she naturally panicked and assumed the worse. Parents often do that when children go missing for just a moment in time, anyone taken their eyes off their child in a supermarket for a fraction of a second and then cannot see them?

Offline Benice

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2014, 10:37:53 AM »
Yes. It makes no sense if you follow their theory of events.

However, it does make sense if you follow a different possible scenario. One in which some of all of the McCann group had some level of involvement and/or knowledge of Madeleine's 'disappearance. It you consider that scenario then it would make sense that there was a deliberate delay in phoning the police. The police were not called until there was a state of panic and confusion. By the time they arrived, all hell had broken loose. When there is a state of confusion, it is harder to remember who did what when or where people were at a particular time.

If is is correct that the phone call logged with the local police was at 10.40pm, then the police would not be on the scene until close to 11pm.

Given that some witnesses in the resort in their statements put the timing of hearing about a missing child as early as 9.20pm or 9.30pm, then that  means the police were not on the scene until an hour and a half after the (alleged) abduction. Or at hour after the time that Kate raised the alarm

Realistically, that would probably place any abductor well away from the resort and maybe the local area by the time the police arrived.

What is still confusing is the witness reports of hearing a commotion between 9.20pm and 9.45pm. If those timings are right, then the McCanns and/or their friends raised the alarm earlier - more like 9.15pm - the the approximate time that Gerry was coming back to the table having spoken to Jeremy.

So Matt's 9.30pm check and Kate's 10pm check could not have happened, if the alarm had already been raised.

What is going on here? They must have been added later.

But why? To allow extra time? To postpone the time of the alleged 'abduction' to postpone the time that the police were called? To allow time for Smithman or whoever to do whatever was necessary.

Or what?

Good grief  - yet ANOTHER part of this cunning plan for the group to remember to follow -i.e.  ''Everyone must delay phoning the police.''    How ludicrous can you get?

Why didn't Gerry just wait until the middle of the night - and then dispose of Madeleine's body?   No need for anyone else to be involved or for 9 people  to have to remember all the convoluted details of this  'plan' to fool the PJ and to provide a cover story.   And when on earth did they all discuss and agree to be involved in this massive cover up plan and learn all the stuff they were apparently going to have to remember?   It would take hours IMO.

IMo For quite a while after Madeleine disappeared - hopes would  be high that she could be found at any minute.  JT could not see into the future and had no way of knowing that wouldn't be the case, so why would she add to the parents distress by telling them something which would almost certainly destroy that hope - when there was still a chance Madeleine may be found?  IMO As far as she knew the police had already been called  and for all she knew they would be arriving in the next few minutes - as once again - she could not see into the future.   As soon as the GNR arrived - she told them.

Once again - you forget none of them had the benefit of hindsight which you now have  - and constantly and unfairly use against them IMO.

Whether the first phone call was made at 10.40 or not - it is clear that they all THOUGHT the police had been called by Reception staff within 10mins or so of the alarm being raised.     The fact that OC staff were arriving as a result of phone calls instigated by Reception staff would have strengthened the belief that their request for the police to be called had also been acted upon.     It now seems very likely that it wasn't.
IMO.
 






The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Benice

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2014, 10:52:13 AM »
I don't think its odd. Kate may have suspected someone took her but other people will have advised her to wait while they search for Madeleine assuming she had gone off wandering. As I recall they all through the complex was safe so its unlikely that anyone from friends to staff would immediately assume that Madeleine had been abducted. The 30 minute wait for them to finally call in the police does sound about right after they had made a search for her in and around the apartment complex and resort.

I can't read too much into Kate's initial reaction of her believing Madeleine had been taken. It was an unreal and horrible situation to be in when the child was missing, she naturally panicked and assumed the worse. Parents often do that when children go missing for just a moment in time, anyone taken their eyes off their child in a supermarket for a fraction of a second and then cannot see them?

I agree.   However, there's an enormous difference between losing sight of your child in a supermarket and going into their bedroom and finding them missing - and windows/shutters which you knew had  been closed when you left - were now open.

Lots of people have told of when their child went missing (temporarily)  - and although I'm  not one of them, it's obvious to me that the parents primary panic is based on the fact that their child may have been taken away by someone.   But they do know there is a very strong possibility their child may have just wondered off.   IMO Kate did not have that to cling on to - because she knew her own child and did not believe in her heart that she was capable of opening the window/shutters.

I can fully understand her reaction.




The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline j.rob

Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2014, 01:01:23 PM »
Good grief  - yet ANOTHER part of this cunning plan for the group to remember to follow -i.e.  ''Everyone must delay phoning the police.''    How ludicrous can you get?

Well I don't think it is ludicrous at all. Something happened to Madeleine that the McCanns wanted to cover up. Going out in the middle of the night would be massively suspicious. It would immediately arouse suspicion if anyone happened to see or hear them. Plus it would give a large time frame where the McCanns could not be accounted for and had not been seen - there would be no alibis. It is clear that the McCanns and their friends thought the timeline very important - plus the fact that the McCanns were seen that evening by quite a few people. If either of them had been absent for a large part of the evening, or not seen by anyone, that would be suspicious.

Why didn't Gerry just wait until the middle of the night - and then dispose of Madeleine's body?   No need for anyone else to be involved or for 9 people  to have to remember all the convoluted details of this  'plan' to fool the PJ and to provide a cover story.   And when on earth did they all discuss and agree to be involved in this massive cover up plan and learn all the stuff they were apparently going to have to remember?   It would take hours IMO.

It may be the the others did not entirely understand what was going on. I don't know. Perhaps they were concerned about possible neglect charges as they all left their children unattended for in the evening. Perhaps they all panicked and decided if they stuck together and showed how they checked up on the children it would show that they all felt it was a reasonable thing to do and would ward off neglect charges.

IMo For quite a while after Madeleine disappeared - hopes would  be high that she could be found at any minute.

Once again, you are rewriting history. The PJ observed that in the days following Madeleine's disappearance, Kate and Gerry showed little hope that she would be found. In fact, they even tried to sleep on the night of hver disappearance. That is quite extraordinary.

JT could not see into the future and had no way of knowing that wouldn't be the case, so why would she add to the parents distress by telling them something which would almost certainly destroy that hope - when there was still a chance Madeleine may be found?

Again, this is completely illogical. If you thought you had seen the abductor, you would want police on the scene as soon as possible. Why would it destroy all hope, necessarily? Madeleine may have been found by a childless couple, for instance. I know it's not likely but it's not impossible. Some children who are abducted are returned. It can happen

 IMO As far as she knew the police had already been called  and for all she knew they would be arriving in the next few minutes - as once again - she could not see into the future.   As soon as the GNR arrived - she told them.

Why did both the McCanns wail and become practically hysterical if they still had some hope that Madeleine would be found. They both told the PJ that they thought she had been abducted by a paedophile ring. That's about as bad as it can get. The PJ, quite sensibly, did not believe their version events. Simply because it was unbelievable

Once again - you forget none of them had the benefit of hindsight which you now have  - and constantly and unfairly use against them IMO.

Look up the statistics on accidents involving young children. They are not uncommon at all and deaths occur. It was not sensible to leave three children under four alone in an apartment at night without adult supervision. If, as Kate claims, she thought the abductor drugged the children, why on earth did she not get the twins medically checked? That was a glaring omission. In my opinion, the children probably had been drugged, but not by a stranger. This would account for the excessively deep sleep that the twins were in. I also think that the McCanns brought it up in case the twins WERE medically checked and were found to have been medicated. They are bloody lucky that the police didn't insist on medical examination of the twins as if this has happened at home, I am pretty sure that would have been the case. And that could have landed them in all sorts of trouble.

Whether the first phone call was made at 10.40 or not - it is clear that they all THOUGHT the police had been called by Reception staff within 10mins or so of the alarm being raised.     The fact that OC staff were arriving as a result of phone calls instigated by Reception staff would have strengthened the belief that their request for the police to be called had also been acted upon.     It now seems very likely that it wasn't.
IMO.

It really isn't very difficult to pick up your phone and dial three numbers. Have you ever been on the scene of a road accident - often there will be half a dozen people on their mobiles seeking help. You don't send someone off to find a public telephone while someone is lying bleeding in the road.

The McCanns have got away with.......well.....it is all crazy.