Did the PJ conduct a proper search for evidence at OC?

[Redblossom]

Why should this stop the police to pick up the sheet.. and send them to the labs?
It is easy to identify the DNA of anyone who that nigh was known to be in the room.

And even to send the blind rope to the labs! IMO in this case the blind rope was more important than the sheets.. it could have identified who opened the shutters!

Any DNA forensics will have probably been quite useless anyway as the scene was tampered with after the disappearance making the melding of prints and DNA of others and any stranger probable

Fiona Paynes fingerprints on the webbing cord of the shutters
Diane Websters, Gerry Mccanns, Kate Mccanns fingerprints on the shutters, they all "tested" them to see if they can be opened from outside!
Fingerprints and footprints all over the apartment by friends and nursery staff
Etc etc

All this from tapas 9 interviews

[jassi]

Any DNA forensics will have probably been quite useless anyway as the scene was tampered with after the disappearance making the melding of prints and DNA of others and any stranger probable

Fiona Paynes fingerprints on the webbing cord of the shutters
Diane Websters, Gerry Mccanns, Kate Mccanns fingerprints on the shutters, they all "tested" them to see if they can be opened from outside!
Fingerprints and footprints all over the apartment by friends and nursery staff
Etc etc

All this from tapas 9 interviews

And, of course,all this prancing around was done long before the police were able to get to the scene.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Was she allowed to do this, or was she sent away ?

Good point, and thanks for the clarification, Redblossom.

Wasn't the only example of the crime scene being left open, however....

[Redblossom]

And, of course,all this prancing around was done long before the police were able to get to the scene.

Yes, almost an hours worth
PS I forgot Gerrys fingerprints on the webbing too when he lowered the shutters

Good point, and thanks for the clarification, Redblossom.

Wasn't the only example of the crime scene being left open, however....

You're welcome, the cleaner didn't go anywhere near 5a so it isnt an example of the crime scene beng open. Can you give me an example of how the "crime scene" was left open by police? Remember also at first the local police thought the child may have wandered, so of course they didn't come in with white bodysuits slippers and masks! It wasn't a murder scene....

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yes, almost an hours worth
PS I forgot Gerrys fingerprints on the webbing too when he lowered the shutters


You're welcome, the cleaner didn't go anywhere near 5a so it isnt an example of the crime scene beng open. Can you give me an example of how the "crime scene" was left open by police? Remember also at first the local police thought the child may have wandered, so of course they didn't come in with white bodysuits slippers and masks! It wasn't a murder scene....

A crime scene doesn't have to be a murder scene to be sectioned off.

The fact they thought that she had wandered was a conclusion they chose to come to. Minds should have been far more open at that point. No-one apart from police should have been allowed anywhere near the apartment or garden from minute one.

[Redblossom]

A crime scene doesn't have to be a murder scene to be sectioned off.

The fact they thought that she had wandered was a conclusion they chose to come to. Minds should have been far more open at that point. No-one apart from police should have been allowed anywhere near the apartment or garden from minute one.

You didn't give me an example of how it was left open? IE who did the police allow in? You also seem to be ignoring the fact of the contamination that happened from 10pm or so by all and sundry, before police got there, something the Public Prosecutor lamented in his legal summary as something making forensic collation inviable


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm



 >@@(*&)

AS for sealing off a crime scene, this is normally done when it's thought a crime has happened, not if it might have happened, its never automatic in a missing child case is it?
PS that was a question not a statement

[Estuarine]

And, of course,all this prancing around was done long before the police were able to get to the scene.

Seemingly about an hour from the alarm being raised until the GNR appeared. Then about another two hours before the PJ arrived. For what ever reasons. But plenty of time to "rummage" the scene as was said.

[Sherlock Holmes]

You didn't give me an example of how it was left open? IE who did the police allow in? You also seem to be ignoring the fact of the contamination that happened from 10pm or so by all and sundry, before police got there, something the Public Prosecutor lamented in his legal summary as something making forensic collation inviable


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm



 >@@(*&)

AS for sealing off a crime scene, this is normally done when it's thought a crime has happened...it's never automatic in a missing child case is it?
PS that was a question not a statement

I am looking for examples of whom police let in after their arrival....just wanted to get back to you promptly now.

It's true that the crime scene was contaminated already, and that that must have posed a serious problem for gathering of reliable forensics. However, most crime scenes will have a certain degree of contamination before police arrive. That does not mean that there is no point in sealing of the scene or otherwise treating the place as a crime scene thereafter. There could still be important information left.

Yes, perhaps it is with hindsight that we describe 5A as a crime scene. I have seen houses cordoned off over here in America after a child's disappearance. In one example just round the corner a couple of years ago, the whole street was sectioned off for days (until, sadly, the child was found dead after having being abducted). But perhaps there was more solid evidence for criminality in these cases.

Perhaps sectioning off is a bit excessive, I don't know. Certainly nothing to suggest it happened at 5A.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Clearly states here that the GNR were presiding over a scene in which friends of the McCanns and others were circulating freely in and around the apartment.

It was not until the arrival of the Criminology specialist employed by the PJ  that instructions were given - at the criminologist's behest - to have the apartment closed off.

The criminologist and the colleague accompanying him arrived between 00:40 and 00: 50 and the scene was closed off shortly after that:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html

[Redblossom]

Clearly states here that the GNR were presiding over a scene in which friends of the McCanns and others were circulating freely in and around the apartment.

It was not until the arrival of the Criminology specialist employed by the PJ  that instructions were given - at the criminologist's behest - to have the apartment closed off.

The criminologist and the colleague accompanying him arrived between 00:40 and 00: 50 and the scene was closed off shortly after that:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html

Yes that's what the gnr found when they got there, doesn't answer my question of WHO the gnr let in independently apart from all these people already there, ie your claim that the scene was left OPEN

So scene was closed off after PJ  the professionals arrived after midnight, puts a bunt into certain posters alleging crime scene wasn't closed off for two days too

[Sherlock Holmes]

yes, that's what the gnr found when they got there, doesn't answer my question of WHO the gnr let in independently apart from all these people already there

There is nothing in this particular statement about who specifically was let in and at what time, but read this carefully:

He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.
 
He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called Silvia.
 
He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.

People are described as 'circulating freely' in and around the apartment, i.e. moving in and out.

That means that the GNR were watching people walking into the apartment. Whether there were new people, or if it was the same set of people walking in and out, does not matter. GNR did not at that point close the scene off.

[stephen25000]

Could you point to where Kate is supposed to have opened the shutters?

Carana, can you point to cast iron evidence to show where the shutters were seen (not said), but actually physically seen. to be open an independent party ?

[Redblossom]

There is nothing in this particular statement about who specifically was let in and at what time, but read this carefully:

He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.
 
He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called Silvia.
 
He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.

People are described as 'circulating freely' in and around the apartment, i.e. moving in and out.

That means that the GNR were watching people walking into the apartment. Whether there were new people, or if it was the same set of people walking in and out, does not matter. GNR did not at that point close the scene off.

Maybe they had no power to do so? Did you ever think of that? Point is crime scene was trashed long before police got there.

[Carana]

The GNR also checked whether she could have been somewhere in the apartment there before contacting the PJ.
They aren't the CID, they get called out to deal with lesser incidents, and refer up to the PJ when necessary.

So, yes, the parents, friends and OC staff had gone into the apartment, but so had the GNR, and the PJ later.

As far as I'm aware, few people actually went into the children's bedroom that evening, and there are hairs from Madeleine's bed that were noted by by the scientific people, but never seem to have made it to the lab, and a few other hairs found in the apartment with haplotypes that didn't correspond to anyone who was known to have had access. There is at least one thread on this issue somewhere here.

[Redblossom]

Carana, can you point to cast iron evidence to show where the shutters were seen (not said), but actually physically seen. to be open an independent party ?

There is no witness at all to seeing the shutters and window open! Apart from KM of course so Carana cannot have a positive reply to that question