Jeremy Bamber - The Aga cooker and its relevance to the burn marks on Nevill

[John]

This is the dreadful scene which met armed police officers on the morning of the murders as they made their way into the kitchen at White House Farm.  What originally they thought was the body of a woman was discovered to be in fact Nevill Bamber seated partially in a chair but leaning forward with his head in a coal scuttle.

It has been suggested that the burn marks made on Nevill Bamber's back were in fact made with a hot rifle barrel.  We know that as a result of tests it was found that a rifle barrel does not get hot enough to cause such burning.

It is now being suggested therefore that the tip of the rifle barrel was heated by being set on the Aga cooker.  As it was the middle of the night and in August I don't think the Aga would have been hot enough to conduct that sort of heat.

The Bamber family Aga cooker was coke fuelled in 1985.  Such a cooker was well capable of running through the night and especially so if set to low output.  The photographs taken of the cooker on the morning of the murders depict a cooker which was either on a very low heat or not then lit.  We have no way of knowing the status of the cooker when the murders took place prior to 3.00am but the first police officers on the scene record the Aga as being lit when they arrived.

 

[Myster]

I agree that the Aga is unlikely to have been on in mid-August, but if it was oil-fired why was there a coal scuttle handy in the kitchen ?

I thought the fire door was as in 1 and even if it was oil-fired, access would be needed to the burners for maintenance.

Is that the piece of the broken-off rifle butt, or something else at 2 ?

And is 3 a blood-stained towel ?

For anyone to brand Nevill's upper back, his pyjama top would have to be pulled down at the neck first and then replaced as at 4.

[John]

An Aga cooker identical to that found in the kitchen at White House farm in 1985.

This particular model has been converted to oil.



http://www.aveccookers.co.uk/products-page/agas/2-oven-oil-fired-fully-reconditioned-traditional-aga-cooker/



Below is a photo of the Bamber kitchen showing the Aga cooker.

[Myster]

Thanks for your reply John!

The modern oil-fired Aga has a much larger access door to the pressure-jet burner, (as you probably know oil has be turned into a fine mist before it will ignite, and therefore has to be contained in a sealed combustion chamber to prevent oily fumes and flames from escaping into the room) unlike the refurbished one in your photograph, which if I'm right could be a converted solid-fuel model, ie. from solid fuel to oil. The Aga 2-oven design hasn't changed much since it was introduced in the 1930's and removal of ashes was always a messy task through the small door, until the industrial vac became the norm.

As I've noted elsewhere before, the burn marks on the back could well have been made a lit cigarette, and after all with or without silencer it was a loaded rifle that did the damage to Nevill.

[Myster]

Has anyone read Mike's latest theorising called So and so, said so...?

Another classic Sheila done it scenario this time with a twist.  Apparently she leant the rifle on the 'hot' Aga oven while reloading and before shooting Nevill again.  According to Mike this is how Nevill got the burn marks on the back of his neck.

Lets see    >@@(*&)   Hot Aga?  ...at 3am in a balmy August morning?  I know a lot of people who have kitchen stoves and not one of them runs a stove 24/7 in the months of July and August.  Even if the Aga was on and warm at 3am in the morning it would not have been hot and most certainly never hot enough to super heat the tip of a rifle for any length of time.

Only the police, possibly Barbara Wilson or Jean Bouttell and Jeremy Bamber himself would have known if the AGA was lit that morning. (vidvic may know through his contact with the family)

But assuming it was coke-fired and alight on idle, even if the rifle end wasn't used, another implement such as one hung up on the right could have been used to remove the filler plug in the boiling plate and then inserted in the combustion chamber or inserted through the lower fire door. It wouldn't  have taken very long to bring it up to branding temperature and used to inflict the marks, to test if he was still alive or simply for malicious intent.

If it was for the first reason it begs the question as to why he didn't feel for a wrist pulse. Maybe he didn't know how..., or it didn't cross his mind..., or he was mindful of leaving blooded fingerprint evidence.

Neil B..... has just revealed that the AGA was on medium setting and that it was solid-fuelled.
John... were you aware of that, as I thought earlier this year you assumed it was oil-fired and wasn't on?

To me it does make sense because of...,
1. the coal scuttle present in the kitchen, (sometimes referred to as the AGA coal scuttle).
2. the absence of any oil storage tank outside in close proximity to the kitchen.
3. the lack of any oil control/fire valve near to the AGA.
4. the old style design of the front, unlike the later oil-fired one with a larger ash/fire-door.
5. the large connected coal store.

Wilkes refers to it being on that day... "The kettle boiled on the Aga, coffee gurgled in the percolator"... but this may just be artistic license.
In addition, three adults (four if Jeremy Bamber is included) and two children had to be fed that week.

I'm assuming the house had no central heating (AGAs only heat domestic hot water) so even on Summer nights the house may not have been that warm. Why would an electric blanket be left in the parents' bed in the middle of Summer anyway if it wasn't to be used?

So branding using the AGA as a heat source may be significant, and this may be the direction future tests (if any) will be carried out.
But as I mentioned in an earlier post.... how relevant is it?
Just because the heated rifle end could have been used to inflict the burns doesn't mean the moderator wasn't fitted at all that morning.... or am I missing something?

[I've just previewed this post and the name B..... has been automatically censored... why is that.. ellis isn't rude is it?]  8-)(--)

[John]

The relevance of the Aga cooker seems to run and run Myster but the truth seems to be that the cooker was in fact a coke fuelled Aga of the 1935 circa. 

I think the confusion arose as the old Aga models which looked exactly like the one in the Bamber kitchen have now been converted to gas or oil.  The old Aga's like the Bambers was fuelled  by coke from the top into a hopper above the firebox and this need only be done once or twice a day. 

At night the cooker would be set to its lowest output and the two heat dampers lowered as in the photo below.  A unique feature of the Aga was that even with the fire extinguished it could retain the heat for nearly 12 hours.




I find it unlikely that the barrel of a rifle could be heated sufficiently enough to cause burn marks as seen on Nevill's back by simply placing it against the cooker but then again if someone really wanted to do this they could open the lid of the cooker and place the barrel of the rifle directly into the firebox.

[Myster]

Where did your earlier reply disappear to, John... I see you've started a different thread.

Are you certain it was solid fuel now?
If so, some of the info below referring to oil-fired AGAs may not be relevant.

I can't see a scuttle being present in the kitchen if it wasn't used.

It depends whether you believe ngb or not, and I know buddy once referred to a police statement which stated that the AGA was lit.

Although I don't have one now I have past experience of two Rayburns and these were always filled through a hole left by a removable plug in one of the hotplates on top, and AGAs are filled in the same way via the left-hand boiling plate plug-hole (see the 3-dimensional cut-out view in an earlier post and the photos below).
They are only filled, say once a day anyway, so removing and replacing pots and pans is no problem.
All solid-fuel AGAs have a rudimentary thermostat lever on the left to control temperature... the slotted vent at the bottom is just that, an immovable vent.
Yes, all the circular plates are removed for maintenance, but the central portion is a small plug removed for filling only.

Youtube has a few informative servicing videos on the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvq-gLVVN7Y

Any long implement other than just a rifle end could have been inserted through this hole into the hot coals or failing that via the ash-door on the lower front face, into the hot ashes or the grate just above them (assuming Nevill's body was not in the way).
If the AGA was set to low then this would bring any metal up to temperature more quickly than putting it into one of the ovens on the right.

The earlier oil-fired vapourising jet boilers (unlike more recent pressure-jet ones) have to be on continuously... they are not like ordinary modern oil boilers which can be turned on and off in an instant. AGAs rely on constant heat input to keep the solid heavy metal structure hot if they are to run efficiently, (much like an electric overnight storage heater retains heat in firebricks).
This applies just the same with a coke-fired AGA.... you prevent them from going out by keeping them regularly filled.

[John]

Just for clarity, here is a photo of an identical cooker with the lid completely removed.

[John]

I agree Myster so I have altered the original thread and will bring anything relevant back into this new one when I get a chance to review it.

The photos of the scene in the kitchen certainly show the Aga dampened down for the night but the firebox would have still been hot and ready to go as soon as it was required in the morning.

I wonder what you think about the heated rifle barrel theory?  Do you think Sheila would have had the presence of mind to do such a thing because I certainly don't.

[Myster]

Re the photo:-
The open combustion chamber on the left and the whitish insulant on the right, a lot of which has been removed.
Ashpit door at bottom left (KEEP TIGHTLY CLOSED)

As for Sheila, I doubt very much if she even had the wickedness in her to consider it... by all accounts she was daddy's girl.

Then there was the coordination issue... beans on toast... making a drink... etc.

If they were inflicted that morning, and not in the fields by farming machinery the previous day, as Shona suggested, then the only two reasons that I can think of at the moment are to test if Nevill was still alive or for some deranged malicious purpose.

[Angelo222]

I agree Myster so I have altered the original thread and will bring anything relevant back into this new one when I get a chance to review it.

The photos of the scene in the kitchen certainly show the Aga dampened down for the night but the firebox would have still been hot and ready to go as soon as it was required in the morning.

I wonder what you think about the heated rifle barrel theory?  Do you think Sheila would have had the presence of mind to do such a thing because I certainly don't.

An interesting proposition guys.   8-)(--)

If what you are suggesting is true this puts the blame well back on Jeremy Bamber for all sorts of reasons.  Jeremy had a mark on the back of his hand too didn't he?  hmm...   >@@(*&)

I go with the malicious myster.

[John]

Something else, if the tip of the rifle barrel had been heated to such an extent in a fire the surface coating would have tarnished or become sooted but I don't see any reference to this in the forensics.

[Myster]

Something else, if the tip of the rifle barrel had been heated to such an extent in a fire the surface coating would have tarnished or become sooted but I don't see any reference to this in the forensics.

If you look at the PC Whiddon '85 b&w rifle photo there doesn't seem to be any damage to the bluing at the end, so maybe it wasn't used.
Can't really tell from old pictures though... the rifle would have to be released from police storage to examine it professionally.
McKay hasn't applied for it to be released (yet) apparently.... he'll probably walk away after the latest setback.

And it wouldn't have got hot enough even by shooting twenty five rounds in quick succession (on the night there would have been breaks between firing it anyway, upstairs and down, allowing cooling off periods in between).

Could one of the tools hanging up to the right of the AGA, say a plug removal bar, have been responsible instead?

[Myster]

Part of the recently released court judgement (Judicial Review 29th.Nov.2012)....,

29.    It would, I think, be helpful to add one further matter.  Prior to the Commission making its report, the Commissioners were aware from the screening of the television documentary of the evidence of Mr Boyce, to which I have already referred.  His conclusion was a conclusion in support of Dr Caruso, but there was no evidence in that television documentary to show how the barrel of the rifle could have been heated sufficiently. 
30.    There is, however, a further report that was submitted, after the Commission's decision of 25 April 2012, in which Mr Boyce set out his view as to how the rifle end could have been heated to the necessary temperature.  He accepts that multiple firing would not have had sufficient effect on the temperature of the rifle barrel or the silencer.  He concludes that the rifle or the silencer had to be heated artificially in order to burn.  It was possible to heat a barrel on a hot plate of a cooker to 200 degrees in less than five minutes. 
31.    This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view.  There was in the kitchen an AGA.  The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid.  An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up.  As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate.  It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.
32.    So in my judgment it is clear that the evidence of Dr Caruso, on the assumption that it is admissible, would not in the Commission's judgment have been sufficient to pass the test in Pendleton, and I can see no basis upon which  their view could be challenged.

[Admin, if you think posting the above breaches crown copyright then I will remove it]

Full document available here....,

http://www.crimeline.info/case/bamber-v-criminal-cases-review-commission


 

[insider]

Part of the recently released court judgement (Judicial Review 29th.Nov.2012)....,

29.    It would, I think, be helpful to add one further matter.  Prior to the Commission making its report, the Commissioners were aware from the screening of the television documentary of the evidence of Mr Boyce, to which I have already referred.  His conclusion was a conclusion in support of Dr Caruso, but there was no evidence in that television documentary to show how the barrel of the rifle could have been heated sufficiently. 
30.    There is, however, a further report that was submitted, after the Commission's decision of 25 April 2012, in which Mr Boyce set out his view as to how the rifle end could have been heated to the necessary temperature.  He accepts that multiple firing would not have had sufficient effect on the temperature of the rifle barrel or the silencer.  He concludes that the rifle or the silencer had to be heated artificially in order to burn.  It was possible to heat a barrel on a hot plate of a cooker to 200 degrees in less than five minutes. 
31.    This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view.  There was in the kitchen an AGA.  The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid.  An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up.  As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate.  It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.
32.    So in my judgment it is clear that the evidence of Dr Caruso, on the assumption that it is admissible, would not in the Commission's judgment have been sufficient to pass the test in Pendleton, and I can see no basis upon which  their view could be challenged.

[Admin, if you think posting the above breaches crown copyright then I will remove it]

Full document available here....,

http://www.crimeline.info/case/bamber-v-criminal-cases-review-commission

A nice bit of work myster.  I must have a read up on the full judgement.