Did Sheila have a psychotic episode on the night of the murders?

[scipio_usmc]

Moreover even if she had a psychotic episode, would she have committed the murders and then killed herself?

Jeremy Bamber’s defenders insist that she definitely had an episode and killed everyone but what evidence is there that this is the case?  They don’t require any evidence proving it happened instead they just make excuses that it could have happened and that evidence proving she did it could have been washed away or missed. 

As a practical matter psychotic episodes rarely result in harm or suicide.  Those that do are usually because of a lack of treatment.  It is almost unheard of for someone being treated to have an episode resulting in murder or suicide let alone both.  The only harm Sheila is known to have caused during an episode was to herself by smashing herself into a wall while she was delusional and flipping out.  Her problems started when she was divorcing.  It is common for trauma like that to effect women.  It creates depression and brings about more stress and problems.  Because of this she was being treated.  She had flare ups from not taking her medication and thus began receiving injections instead.  She received her injections on time and thus had her medication in her system when she was autopsied. 

Jeremy’s defenders resort to a number of things.  First they talk about things that happened years prior, prior to her being successfully treated or when she failed to take her medication.  All these things prove is that without treatment she could have episodes.  They fail to prove that she would have been likely to kill during an episode, which again is a very rare occurrence. Next they have no way to establish she stopped taking her medication, indeed she was taking it and had it I her system. This is a major problem because it is pretty much unheard for people who have been treated successfully to kill or commit suicide unless they stop taking their medication and everyone around them misses the warning signs until it is too late.  They stop taking their medication they have outbursts that get more severe and eventually escalate.           

What evidence is there that Sheila had outburst or episodes anytime recently?  None at all the episodes spoke of were years past and doctors who saw her saw her improving.  What about people noticing any changes with more psychotic provocation?  None noticed, the best that Jeremy’s defenders could come up with is the claim that anytime she came home from visiting her parents she was depressed because she was sick of her mother preaching to her that she was sinning by sleeping around and partying.   On the very night of the murders a relative spoke to Sheila over the phone and she was quiet and withdrawn not agitated. It is unlikely she simply suddenly developed a psychotic episode at 3AM and immediately upon the onset decided to go on a rampage killing everyone in their sleep and then to kill herself.

Murder, suicide and murder-suicides all result from different things.  Psychotic episodes that result in murder are usually from a delusion that someone is out to harm the person including seeing the person as the devil.  Most of the time it is men who commit murders and even-murder suicides.  The percentage of killers who kill during a psychotic episode who ware women is very small.  In a few cases the killers had delusions that the victim had the devil inside and said they were trying to kill the devil to save the victim so the victim could live and the killers were deluded into thinking the victims could survive.  In a few the victims claimed the victim was the devil.  In most cases though the victim had some other irrational belief of why the victim was a threat and they had to kill the victim before the victim killed them.  Jeremy Bamber defenders suggest that she saw her father as the devil and that she had to kill him.  Jeremy asserts (but there is no truth he is telling the truth) that Sheila was arguing with her father because he wanted her to give up custody of the kids (at first he suggested Nevill wanted to give them up for adoption but after learning of a letter from the children’s father changed to asserting Nevill wanted the father to be given custody) .  This alone makes me wonder about the veracity of his claim since the adoption part was totally unnecessary and seemed to have been made up by him till he found a tale that was more believable. Moreover, why would she be so docile over the phone if she had been agitated?  Even if she had a psychotic episode where she saw her father as the devil and needed to kill him to protect her children then why would she kill everyone else as well including them?  It doesn’t fit. 

In any event she had taken her medicine and it was in her system.  Jeremy’s supporters suggest that because her medication had been reduced from 200MG to 100MG that this is why she had a psychotic episode.  They suggest it was too low a dosage.  First of all, studies show very little difference in effectiveness between 200MG and 100MG dosages.  There was a very slight chance the change would not be effective enough.  It it were not working then there would have been signs.  The chance of her suddenly getting an episode out of the blue in the middle of the night and immediately getting up and taking action to kill everyone is simply not consistent with what happens.  People will deteriorate over time before resorting to action.  The lack of any warning immediate signs coupled with her taking her medication means there simply is no evidence she was at risk for a psychotic episode of the sort alleged and it still would not likely result in murdering everyone and then killing herself.

Most murder suicides are committed by men.  Most of those with mental disorders who commit murder suicide are also male. Depression is the main cause of women killing themselves.  They feel sorry for themselves and do not want to live anymore. Instead of just killing themselves they kill their kids because they are jealous of them or blame them for problems or do not want their kids taken care of by strangers.  Severe depression resulting from her not taking her medication could potentially culminate in a mother decided to kill her kids and herself.  But killing her parents as well would not be associated with this. Killing off an entire family is brought about by more than just depression.

So basically Jeremy’s defenders are claiming her medication just instantly stopped working and she immediately acted out to commit a psychotic murder against her father seeing him as the devil and a threat to her and her kids,  killed her mother for some other reason like general hatred and even though was killing her beloved father to protect her children decided to kill them herself anyway alone with killing herself.  Even for someone who stopped taking their medication this sort of mixing together would be unlikely.  You don’t see a mother decided to kill herself and her kids because of severe depression doing also deciding to kill someone she sees as a treat to her relationship with her kids.  It doesn’t fit.  He actions of killing a mother out of hatred also doesn’t fit that is more of a rational desire than out of delusional views of a threat. No one can say the medicine was not working and there was a progressive depression that was getting worse by the day at best annoyance of being preached to about sleeping around.

When you factor in the preplanning required to commit the murders and the fact that there was no evidence Sheila committed the murders then things get even worse.  The phone precautions are things that were preplanned and executed beforehand.  In a psychotic episode she would be even more likely to accidentally hurt herself and break her nails not less so.  It is suggested that in a crazy frenzy even a 5’7” waif could beat Nevill severely.  Even taking care though a 5’7” female would receive some damage to her hands while beating him, especially while tightly gripping the rifle and bashing it against him so hard that it broke.  Her nails and hands would have to have received some damage in the process. Moreover she certainly would have elevated levels of lead on her hands as well as gunshot residue on her hands and clothing.  Yet it is suggested that somehow she managed to be careful enough not to receive any damage while beating Nevill and struggling with him over the gun.  Moreover it is claimed she washed up and changed her clothes before killing herself.  What person in severe depression and having a psychotic episode takes a shower, changes her clothes, and puts away a suppressor so no one knows it was used before finally killing herself?  It is a ludicrous suggestion but we are told this is definitely what happened.

What evidence is there that this definitely happened?  What physical evidence establishes this definitely happened?  Jeremy says Nevill told him it was happening so that is definitely how the murders went down and the only way to explain her having no evidence on her body is she washed up and changed so it had to happen though it makes no sense at all. Conveniently, since Jeremy made sure police did not go in right away so he and his supporters could claim she had enough time to take a shower and wash up before the cops went in and somehow they all missed the final bullet shots.  Otherwise the bogus claim is that police washed her before swabbing for gunshot residue.  The only excuse for her clothing though is that she changed. 

                     

[Holly Goodhead]

I didn't really know where to post this but thought here was as good as anywhere  8-)(--)

I hadn't realised that L'Wren Scott, model, fashion designer and partner to Sir Mick Jagger, who committed suicide on Monday was adopted.  Various reasons have been given for her state of mind ranging from her floundering business and associated debts to Mick Jagger ending the relationship.  The latter appears untrue.  However a former lover cited adoption as the reason:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/people/2014/03/20/lwren-scott-hated-adopted-life/6642301/

I couldn't help thinking about similarities with SC's life:

- both adopted into deeply religious families.
- both models
- both appear to have had debts at time of death (SC supposedly a drug debt but unsure if there's any truth in this)
- both acquired kinda stage names: L'wren/Luann and Sheila/Bambi
- both appear to have struggled psychologically with being adopted

[goatboy]

Though a big difference is that L'Wren wasn't murdered by her brother

[Holly Goodhead]

Though a big difference is that L'Wren wasn't murdered by her brother

According to press reports L'wren had a good relationship with her adopted brother but not so close with her adopted sister.

I have always had a good relationship with my adopted brother and personally this is how I think it was with Sheila and Jeremy.  They spent most of their formative years apart at their respective boarding schools and obviously didnt share the blood ties but despite this it appears they got on well and actively sought out the company of one another.

[scipio_usmc]

I didn't really know where to post this but thought here was as good as anywhere  8-)(--)

I hadn't realised that L'Wren Scott, model, fashion designer and partner to Sir Mick Jagger, who committed suicide on Monday was adopted.  Various reasons have been given for her state of mind ranging from her floundering business and associated debts to Mick Jagger ending the relationship.  The latter appears untrue.  However a former lover cited adoption as the reason:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/people/2014/03/20/lwren-scott-hated-adopted-life/6642301/

I couldn't help thinking about similarities with SC's life:

- both adopted into deeply religious families.
- both models
- both appear to have had debts at time of death (SC supposedly a drug debt but unsure if there's any truth in this)
- both acquired kinda stage names: L'wren/Luann and Sheila/Bambi
- both appear to have struggled psychologically with being adopted

First of all what evidence is there that Scott struggled psychologically because of her adoption?  Even Sheila didn't struggle psychologically because of her adoption, her failed marriage and post natal depression took care of that.

As for their financial situation how can you compare a business that lost hundreds off millions of pounds to a rumor of a minor drug debt?

It looks like a variety of things came to a head. 

1) She was going to turn 50 and feared Jagger would break up with him because he said he would only be with women under 50

2) She desperately wanted a family of her own but Jagger didn't want to have any kids with her. She was now too old to have children and regretted her decision.

3) Instead of improving her company ended up losing hudreds of millions of pounds.

She was depressed because of all these things. She didn't have kids to help take her mind off he rproblem the lack of a family of her own was part of her problem. Her business was her life and it was in the toilet. Many people in her place would struggle on but some like her would give up and commit suicide.

Note that she didn't kill Jagger and then commit suicide. Her depression resulted in her taking her own life.

Sheila was murdered along with her parents by her brother.  He wasn't a murderer because he suffered from adoption problems.  He murdered because he was lazy and greedy.

Adults who were adopted as children don't always have mental issues.  Those that do have mental issues about abandonment or not being wanted rarely end up killing themselves or others as a result.  Most suicides or murders are driven by things that are universal- greed, heartbreak, financial ruin, a loss of some other kind etc.

Suicide crosses the mind of a large number of people. Those who act on it ususally don't have a strong support system.

Murder-suicide is a different animal.

This case didn't involve suicide of any kind though just murder for the oldest reason in the world- greed.   

[Holly Goodhead]

First of all what evidence is there that Scott struggled psychologically because of her adoption?  Even Sheila didn't struggle psychologically because of her adoption, her failed marriage and post natal depression took care of that.

As for their financial situation how can you compare a business that lost hundreds off millions of pounds to a rumor of a minor drug debt?

It looks like a variety of things came to a head. 

1) She was going to turn 50 and feared Jagger would break up with him because he said he would only be with women under 50

2) She desperately wanted a family of her own but Jagger didn't want to have any kids with her. She was now too old to have children and regretted her decision.

3) Instead of improving her company ended up losing hudreds of millions of pounds.

She was depressed because of all these things. She didn't have kids to help take her mind off he rproblem the lack of a family of her own was part of her problem. Her business was her life and it was in the toilet. Many people in her place would struggle on but some like her would give up and commit suicide.

Note that she didn't kill Jagger and then commit suicide. Her depression resulted in her taking her own life.

Sheila was murdered along with her parents by her brother.  He wasn't a murderer because he suffered from adoption problems.  He murdered because he was lazy and greedy.

Adults who were adopted as children don't always have mental issues.  Those that do have mental issues about abandonment or not being wanted rarely end up killing themselves or others as a result.  Most suicides or murders are driven by things that are universal- greed, heartbreak, financial ruin, a loss of some other kind etc.

Suicide crosses the mind of a large number of people. Those who act on it ususally don't have a strong support system.

Murder-suicide is a different animal.

This case didn't involve suicide of any kind though just murder for the oldest reason in the world- greed.

Oh Skipio you respond with such fervent ardour 

The evidence L'Wren Scott struggled psychologically with being adopted is based on the link I posted above which quotes her ex-lover.  I rather think an ex-lover is going to have a better understanding of her mind set than tabloid speculation over her floundering business/associated debts and not having a family of her own.

Her business debts according to the press amounted to circa £3.6 million (not the hundred of millions you quote) against her partner's net worth of £200 million.  SC may have had a small drug debt but its all relative eg against her family's net worth circa £436k.

Perhaps she was unable to have children biologically.  If it was that important then I am sure she would have delivered with or without Jagger's input 

In his dreams he may not have wanted to be with a woman over 50 but in reality he is now 70 and without wishing to sound ageist or rude well past his sell by date. He was lucky to have a partner two decades his junior. He was hot to trot when he was younger but I wouldn't want to wake up beside him now that's for sure.  He is very wrinkly.

If you want to use smokescreens with SC's mental health eg failed marriage and post-natal depression be my guest but I think you will find most modern day mental health professionals would see these as consequences of the underlying issues rather than causes.

I agree adult adoptees don't always have mental issues.  In fact most don't, but the FACT is most don't have an adoptive mother who becomes mentally ill so much she requires in-patient psychiatric care as a result of her decision to adopt her first child.  Regardless of this FACT all the studies show that adoptees, throughout their lives, are at greater risk of mental health issues than their non-adopted peers, including suicide/ideation.  If you can find some evidence to the contrary please post it.

You clearly believe JB guilty so does it not strike you as a little odd that his adoptive mother and adopted sister both suffered with serious mental illnesses and JB is serving a life sentence for murdering his entire immediate adoptive family.  There can be no genetic propensity towards mental illness, personality disorders etc.  We know JB and SC come from good genetic backgrounds.

Sheila's Birth Family

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2532.0.html?PHPSESSID=01ba1d3b1ea695efd7af04d3b16c4b7b

Jeremy's Birth Family

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=281.msg4830#msg4830

Where is the evidence JB was lazy and greedy?  If this was the case why would Michael Deckers and Malcolm Waters, owners of Sloppy Joes, not only employ JB but also have him living with them?  I would suggest the reason for this is that JB was an asset to the business.  He has carried this work ethic into prison by working out in the gym, studying and working on his case.  Its all very well saying well he has nothing else to do but there are I am sure plenty of guys that sit around causing trouble, trying to get hold of drugs, watching tv, playing pool and cards etc.

[Myster]

Where is the evidence JB was lazy and greedy?  If this was the case why would Michael Deckers and Malcolm Waters, owners of Sloppy Joes, not only employ JB but also have him living with them?  I would suggest the reason for this is that JB was an asset to the business.  He has carried this work ethic into prison by working out in the gym, studying and working on his case.  Its all very well saying well he has nothing else to do but there are I am sure plenty of guys that sit around causing trouble, trying to get hold of drugs, watching tv, playing pool and cards etc.

For crying out loud.. I've just read this and had to rub my eyes in disbelief !  8-)(--)

Since when has this been called work ?!!   For his own self-interest only I'm afraid.

Pity they don't re-introduce breaking up rocks for hardcore, or chain gangs like they have in the U.S... then he could do some really useful WORK !

[Holly Goodhead]

For crying out loud.. I've just read this and had to rub my eyes in disbelief !  8-)(--)

Since when has this been called work ?!!   For his own self-interest only I'm afraid.

Pity they don't re-introduce breaking up rocks for hardcore, or chain gangs like they have in the U.S... then he could do some really useful WORK !

Hello Myster.  He does do really useful WORK by way of transcribing books into braille and assisting illiterate prisoners with reading and writing 

I know from personal experience of working out in the gym and running over decades that it takes a lot of hard work, motivation and discipline to keep it up day in and day out.  I will readily admit the number one reason is vanity  followed by a sense of well-being, but I am also less likely to suffer medical conditions due to obesity and/or inactivity.  The point I was endeavouring to make with regard to JB is that if he was/is lazy, as many claim, he would surely just slob around the prison doing the absolute bare minimum.  By keeping himself fit he is also less likely to be costing the tax-payer further by requiring medical treatment. 

[scipio_usmc]

Oh Skipio you respond with such fervent ardour 

The evidence L'Wren Scott struggled psychologically with being adopted is based on the link I posted above which quotes her ex-lover.  I rather think an ex-lover is going to have a better understanding of her mind set than tabloid speculation over her floundering business/associated debts and not having a family of her own.

Her business debts according to the press amounted to circa £3.6 million (not the hundred of millions you quote) against her partner's net worth of £200 million.  SC may have had a small drug debt but its all relative eg against her family's net worth circa £436k.

Perhaps she was unable to have children biologically.  If it was that important then I am sure she would have delivered with or without Jagger's input 

In his dreams he may not have wanted to be with a woman over 50 but in reality he is now 70 and without wishing to sound ageist or rude well past his sell by date. He was lucky to have a partner two decades his junior. He was hot to trot when he was younger but I wouldn't want to wake up beside him now that's for sure.  He is very wrinkly.

If you want to use smokescreens with SC's mental health eg failed marriage and post-natal depression be my guest but I think you will find most modern day mental health professionals would see these as consequences of the underlying issues rather than causes.

I agree adult adoptees don't always have mental issues.  In fact most don't, but the FACT is most don't have an adoptive mother who becomes mentally ill so much she requires in-patient psychiatric care as a result of her decision to adopt her first child.  Regardless of this FACT all the studies show that adoptees, throughout their lives, are at greater risk of mental health issues than their non-adopted peers, including suicide/ideation.  If you can find some evidence to the contrary please post it.

You clearly believe JB guilty so does it not strike you as a little odd that his adoptive mother and adopted sister both suffered with serious mental illnesses and JB is serving a life sentence for murdering his entire immediate adoptive family.  There can be no genetic propensity towards mental illness, personality disorders etc.  We know JB and SC come from good genetic backgrounds.

Sheila's Birth Family

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2532.0.html?PHPSESSID=01ba1d3b1ea695efd7af04d3b16c4b7b

Jeremy's Birth Family

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=281.msg4830#msg4830

Where is the evidence JB was lazy and greedy?  If this was the case why would Michael Deckers and Malcolm Waters, owners of Sloppy Joes, not only employ JB but also have him living with them?  I would suggest the reason for this is that JB was an asset to the business.  He has carried this work ethic into prison by working out in the gym, studying and working on his case.  Its all very well saying well he has nothing else to do but there are I am sure plenty of guys that sit around causing trouble, trying to get hold of drugs, watching tv, playing pool and cards etc.

The only smokescreen is coming from you.  You do anything in your power to avoid discussing the actual facts of the case and instead go off on made up nonsense to divert attention.

This thread is about weighing the claim that Sheila murdered her family in a psychotic episode.  Because there is not even a shred of evidence to suggest this actually occurred like Jeremy claimed you instead go off about her adoption though it has no bearing at all.

You seem to have your own issues because you were adopted and project your own problems onto others. Worse you try to use that as a basis to suggest Sheila did it instead of delaing with the facts. You have no shred of evidence that Sheila owed a dime to drug dealers yet suggest it is a reason she might have taken action to kill herself.

I didn't say a debt of hundreds of millions I said loss. The press report I read didn't bother to use decimals so the 3.99 million pound loss looked like 399 million.  The business debts were actually between $6 and 7 million US.  The loss has been growing instead of improving and she needed to mortgage her apartment which Jagger bought for her because she couldn't afford it. Her business was burning cash at an alarming rate.  What happens when your business has negative cash flow?  If people stop loaning you money then you have to sell company assets, can't function anymore and go out of business.  If they still keep loaning money then your debt grows. SHe was looking at even more debt in the future.

Jagger didn't want anymore kids he refused to have a family with her.  She confided to friends she was upset that she skipped having a family to be with him.  She wanted a family and now it was too late. She regretted picking a man significantly older who already had a family and didn't want more kids.  She was scared he would leave her after she turned 50 and even if he didn't he is still likely to die much sooner than her leaving her alone. She gave up on life for all of these reasons.  There is not a shred of evidence her adoption caused her to commit suicide.

Again though this is your smokescreen as you try to suggest a parallel between her and Sheila to suggest Sheila did it.  Anything to avoid discussing the evidence because the evidence demonstrates Jeremy is guilty and for some reason you insist on pretending he didn't do it. 

Jeremy's only concern was money not his family.  He didn't care about them enough to go there befor epolice. He didn't care enough to press police to go inside to save them.  Indeed he knew they were already dead because he killed them.  He lied repeatedly about Sheila using the weapons in the house though later admitting he never saw her use any weapons as an adult.  He changed his tune after one of the people he claimed she went shooting with denied it. I can go on and on. But you want to avoid discussing all this damning evidence so you can try your hand at the pretense that he didn't do it and had no reason to do it.

Each time you run from debating the evidence though it proves you lost the debate and know you did and simply are attempting to divert.   

   

[Lindyhop]

Very well said scipio. And there's a difference between debating the facts as they occured /analysing new evidence that arises to uncover a possible miscarriage of justice... and fangirling over a murderer because ee wuz fit in his twenties.

Work ethic my arse!

[scipio_usmc]

Very well said scipio. And there's a difference between debating the facts as they occured /analysing new evidence that arises to uncover a possible miscarriage of justice... and fangirling over a murderer because ee wuz fit in his twenties.

Work ethic my arse!

His supporters constantly suggest, "maybe this happened".

To constitute reaosnable doubt it is not enough to suggest something is possible.  You have to provide evidence to suggest it did happen and or that it would make sense.  The things suggested are never reaosnable let alone supported by evidence.

For instance, it is not reasonable that someone who decided to commit murder suicide would murder her family then change her clothes and take a bath to wash away all the evidence that she carried out the murders and even hide evidence like the suppressor before shooting herself.  It makes no sense, is unreasonable and is not supported by any physical evidence.  Saying it is theoretically possible to change clothing and wash away evidence is not enough.  One has to provide evidence there is a probability it happened.

In every single case a lawyer can claim in theory the prosecution tampered with evidence.  That doesn't rise to reaosnable doubt.  A lawyer must detail with specificity what was doctored and provide some evidence to suggest the claim is true.

It is not reasonable to suggest his cousins knew her blood type, found a cousin with the same blood type, sprayed the blood inside the suppressor and took the suppressor and rubbed it all around the mantle, and even managed to locate one of Nevill's hair strands to set up Jeremy. One has to provide actual evidence and his supporters can't because it didn't happen and is ridiculous.

His supporters always ignore his own actions and lies.  They refuse to address them no matter how many times you bring them up.  At best they can convince some ignorant people of his innocence but have no hope of convincing those who are aware of the facts thus no chance of convincing a court.   

         

[goatboy]

The fact that he does things to keep himself active in prison isn't necessarily a sign of a strong work ethic. Lots of prisoners do this to occupy their mind and hopefully make the time go by quicker.

And maybe Jeremy is doing good work for the blind as a subconscious effort to attempt to redeem himself for his actions which put him in prison?

I do admire Holly's tenacity and attention to detail, not to mention the fact she usually tries to back her claims up with evidence. But the fact is that Jeremy's actions after the murders are not consistent with a grieving relative. Apparently he was too upset to identify the bodies. But not too upset to see his solicitor to find out about how to get his inheritance. Ann Eaton's statements show a man who was obsessed with selling off everything of value he could get his hands on, a matter of days and weeks at most after the loss of his entire family. I understand that in time he would have had to do this but a grieving relative simply would not have put the wheels in motion so soon. This to me is evidence of his greed, along with of course his robbery of the caravan park. What was his motivation in each of these cases if not greed?

And why Sheila would have left her bloodstained clothes in a bucket to soak after committing the murders? If she was going to kill herself why would she be keen to make sure her clothes could be cleaned afterwards? Who did she think would benefit from this considerate behaviour? Well, she may have killed four innocent people in cold blood but at least she made it easier to get the bloodstains out of clothes she was never going to wear again! Just admit that it makes much more sense that the clothing would have been left soaking in buckets prior to the murders.

[Holly Goodhead]

Very well said scipio. And there's a difference between debating the facts as they occured /analysing new evidence that arises to uncover a possible miscarriage of justice... and fangirling over a murderer because ee wuz fit in his twenties.

Work ethic my arse!

There are virtually no known facts/evidence based on the FACT that initially the soc was treated as 4 murders/1 suicide.  Those that believe JB guilty seem to think that their views/perceptions etc are 'evidence' of guilt.  In reality they carry no more weight than those that hold opposing views. 

JB was convicted on one key aspect of the case and that was the silencer.  Even then the jury returned a majority verdict of 10-2.  Take the silencer out of the equation and he would have walked. The silencer is imo unreliable due to the way in which it was found and subsequently handled prior to arriving at FSS.

Quite frankly all the so-called circumstantial evidence, and that's what it is, re the bike, phone calls, fights in the kitchen, SC's nails, whether or not SC know how to load and fire a gun, broken lampshade and stock, blood on feet and hands or not, JB's behaviour after the tragedy, blah, blah doesn't prove a thing.  It only proves JB's guilt in your mind as that's how your mind interprets the information.  It is not how my mind interprets the information and a growing army of JB supporters.  It is akin to religion.  Some are non believers; others believe in various Gods.  They cant both be right either a God(s) exists or doesn't.  The non believers can't prove they are right no more than the believers can prove they are right.  Its simply a matter of perception based on many factors.

JB and his growing army of supporters did not invent the words miscarriage of justice 

JB's work ethic or lack of was not on trial.  I was simply responding to Scipio's claim that JB murdered his family because he was lazy and greedy.  Something you also seem to believe is true Lindyhop?  If this is the case how did he maintain employment at Little Chef and Sloppy Joes?  EP went into JB's background with a fine toothcomb and I am sure had there been any conduct issues by way of antagonising customers, inability to work as part of a team with managers and colleagues, absenteeism, lateness, dishonesty (hand in till) we would have heard about it.  Are you able to provide an example of JB's laziness?

[Holly Goodhead]

The fact that he does things to keep himself active in prison isn't necessarily a sign of a strong work ethic. Lots of prisoners do this to occupy their mind and hopefully make the time go by quicker.

And maybe Jeremy is doing good work for the blind as a subconscious effort to attempt to redeem himself for his actions which put him in prison?

I do admire Holly's tenacity and attention to detail, not to mention the fact she usually tries to back her claims up with evidence. But the fact is that Jeremy's actions after the murders are not consistent with a grieving relative. Apparently he was too upset to identify the bodies. But not too upset to see his solicitor to find out about how to get his inheritance. Ann Eaton's statements show a man who was obsessed with selling off everything of value he could get his hands on, a matter of days and weeks at most after the loss of his entire family. I understand that in time he would have had to do this but a grieving relative simply would not have put the wheels in motion so soon. This to me is evidence of his greed, along with of course his robbery of the caravan park. What was his motivation in each of these cases if not greed?

And why Sheila would have left her bloodstained clothes in a bucket to soak after committing the murders? If she was going to kill herself why would she be keen to make sure her clothes could be cleaned afterwards? Who did she think would benefit from this considerate behaviour? Well, she may have killed four innocent people in cold blood but at least she made it easier to get the bloodstains out of clothes she was never going to wear again! Just admit that it makes much more sense that the clothing would have been left soaking in buckets prior to the murders.

Thank you Goatboy for the kind words above.  I do try my best    I was abandoned and rejected by Blue; not a nice feeling for an adopted person.  And I am rather out on a limb here on Red but hey ho I keep plugging away.

I have attached a link re Grief Counselling and extracted the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief_counseling

Grief counsellors feel that everyone experiences and expresses grief in their own way, often shaped by culture. They believe that it is not uncommon for a person to withdraw from their friends and family and feel helpless; some might be angry and want to take action. Some may laugh

Please see the last sentence "Some may laugh".  I don't think JB did laugh but many seem to think his behaviour afterwards was inappropriate when in fact any grief counsellor will confirm there is no right or wrong way to react.  I believe at times JB was distressed and at other times was very matter of fact.

If the buckets were unrelated and down to an accident with a period why would SC or June not have placed them in a more discrete location eg the scullery or whatever they referred to the room as that looked like a general dumping ground.  Why leave buckets in a busy kitchen where they could get knocked over.  It doesn't seem very pleasant or hygienic either with the table set for breakfast?

I am also reminded of the tampon applicator left in the lounge?  Females simply do not leave empty tampon applicators anywhere other than down the loo.  AE expresses amazement about this in her WS.  I am making reference to this as it illustrates bizarre happenings.

[puglove]

Thank you Goatboy for the kind words above.  I do try my best    I was abandoned and rejected by Blue; not a nice feeling for an adopted person.  And I am rather out on a limb here on Red but hey ho I keep plugging away.

I have attached a link re Grief Counselling and extracted the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief_counseling

Grief counsellors feel that everyone experiences and expresses grief in their own way, often shaped by culture. They believe that it is not uncommon for a person to withdraw from their friends and family and feel helpless; some might be angry and want to take action. Some may laugh

You carry on plugging away, Holl, you're doing a grand job. Maybe some of Jeremy's growing band of supporters will jump on and help you soon!