Why was PC Grime and the specialist dogs deployed to Praia da Luz?

[Carana]

Why don't you research cases where scents were picked up decades later, leading to identification of human remains ?

I have never said that the dogs weren't useful as an asset - just that, in this case, there was nothing to corroborate their alerts.

There are indeed cases in which dogs have been heroes. A high-five paw-up to them. However, dog handlers are unlikely to post when their dogs got it wrong, nor are the police, until false alerts lead to media accusations that the police were wasting time.

[stephen25000]

I have never said that the dogs weren't useful as an asset - just that, in this case, there was nothing to corroborate their alerts.

There are indeed cases in which dogs have been heroes. A high-five paw-up to them. However, dog handlers are unlikely to post when their dogs got it wrong, nor are the police, until false alerts lead to media accusations that the police were wasting time.

We do not know they were false alerts in this case.

As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.

[Carana]

We do not know they were false alerts in this case.

As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.

We do not know they were false alerts in this case.

As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.

What was inconclusive in the apartment? You and I probably share 5 alleles or more in common with her. It means nothing. If you check the DNA results, you'll find that unrelated people did.

The other aspect is how many VOCs would have been present in any significant amount that could be excluded from a random mixture of isolated molecules present in everyday life, if she had died there for any reason, that would still have been there 3 months later, bearing in mind the limited time between alleged death and removal.

That might be plausible if she had died there and her body had been stuffed in an underground area of some kind beneath the apartment. I'm not aware of any underground cellar, nor what the sewage system actually was, nor whether there was any access to it. 

[Mr Moderator]

Oh ffs John, will you simply pick a side and stick with it !
Your ever changing theatrical swings, dependent on the posting status of the board is wearing rather painfully thin !
As is Angelo's !

There is only one side on this forum OP and that is the truth.     

[Carana]

Oh ffs John, will you simply pick a side and stick with it !
Your ever changing theatrical swings, dependent on the posting status of the board is wearing rather painfully thin !
As is Angelo's !

Why should anyone be expected to "pick a side"? It's not a football game. It is (or should be) about what may have happened to a missing child and anything that may help find her.

[stephen25000]

What was inconclusive in the apartment? You and I probably share 5 alleles or more in common with her. It means nothing. If you check the DNA results, you'll find that unrelated people did.

The other aspect is how many VOCs would have been present in any significant amount that could be excluded from a random mixture of isolated molecules present in everyday life, if she had died there for any reason, that would still have been there 3 months later, bearing in mind the limited time between alleged death and removal.

That might be plausible if she had died there and her body had been stuffed in an underground area of some kind beneath the apartment. I'm not aware of any underground cellar, nor what the sewage system actually was, nor whether there was any access to it.

I'm well aware of the D.N.A. results and what goes with it.

The extent of the 'contamination' would depend on how long the body was there, and the degree of decomposition, which in all likelihood would have been in it's preliminary stages.

[jassi]

There is only one side on this forum OP and that is the truth.     

Views as to what is the truth can vary. Who is to say what is true and what isn't ?

[The Singularity]

I have never said that the dogs weren't useful as an asset - just that, in this case, there was nothing to corroborate their alerts.

There are indeed cases in which dogs have been heroes. A high-five paw-up to them. However, dog handlers are unlikely to post when their dogs got it wrong, nor are the police, until false alerts lead to media accusations that the police were wasting time.

This post pretty much covers I would want to contribute to this debate, the dogs are tools used to detect evidence that humans are unable to detect with our senses. In this case however the dogs didn't contribute in any capacity when introduced into the investigation. Despite several apparent "alerts" the forensics found nothing to corroborate them. It's pretty clear cut, dogs are tools not evidence of guilt.

[Mr Moderator]

I completely agree BUT when certain members (who should know better) alter their posting style and content to kowtow to the general consensus of debate in deference of earlier stated beliefs it pisses me right off !

Please explain your allegation OP.

[Mr Moderator]

This post pretty much covers I would want to contribute to this debate, the dogs are tools used to detect evidence that humans are unable to detect with our senses. In this case however the dogs didn't contribute in any capacity when introduced into the investigation. Despite several apparent "alerts" the forensics found nothing to corroborate them. It's pretty clear cut, dogs are tools not evidence of guilt.

The dogs can provide evidence but without corroboration that evidence can never become proof. 

[The Singularity]

The dogs can provide evidence but without corroboration that evidence can never become proof.

Concisely put. They do have to find something though in the first place and if there had been any body for even a short period of time in the apartment the dogs, as I understand, would have been alerting quite considerably. I'm of the opinion that the lack lustre response from the dogs does really lead to the conclusion that no one really came to harm, or indeed died in the apartment. 

What is also quite infuriating was at the time the forensics were being analysed there seemed to be a concentrated effort to establish internet myth that the forensics were in some way incriminating of both or one of Madeleine's parents. The case in point here being that if there was even a shred of evidence then the McCanns would have been detained.

[stephen25000]

Concisely put. They do have to find something though in the first place and if there had been any body for even a short period of time in the apartment the dogs, as I understand, would have been alerting quite considerably. I'm of the opinion that the lack lustre response from the dogs does really lead to the conclusion that no one really came to harm, or indeed died in the apartment. 

What is also quite infuriating was at the time the forensics were being analysed there seemed to be a concentrated effort to establish internet myth that the forensics were in some way incriminating of both or one of Madeleine's parents. The case in point here being that if there was even a shred of evidence then the McCanns would have been detained.

'lack lustre response'

 


Now that's hardly scientific.

[Carana]

The dogs can provide evidence but without corroboration that evidence can never become proof.

"Evidence" in a debunkerian sense... which, I gathered, was an argument about semantics.

A squashed mosquito on a wall could have been presented as "evidence" of violent behaviour. Whether a court would have accepted the implications might be a different matter.

ETA: Post the Cipriano case.

[Silkywhiskers]

We do not know they were false alerts in this case.

As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.

They were NOT false alerts.

The dogs alerted to cadaver and blood, and DNA was located at the alert sites.

What makes that "false"?

[Mr Gray]

They were NOT false alerts.

The dogs alerted to cadaver and blood, and DNA was located at the alert sites.

What makes that "false"?

No they didn't...forum myth which you have swallowed hook line and sinker...even Grime is not sure what Eddie alerted to...fact