Author Topic: Are 'Murder by Stranger' victims ever removed from the scene of the crime?  (Read 22586 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Estuarine

  • Guest
http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/nostalgia/crimelibrary/annenoblett/

Murder, removal of corpse, deep freeze unsolved to this day.

Offline Carana

Do you mean Joanna Yates? I don't even remember the name of the guy who murdered who, but I do remember Chris Jefferies, her other neighbour, who was wrongly accused.

I believe they lived in the same house, which was converted into flats. They were not strangers.

Here's an example of a stranger murder at home.

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/burglar-guilty-murder-after-stabbing-6745400

I must say that I had to look quite hard for that. It doesn't seem like a common crime.

What definition of "stranger" are we talking about?


Different countries seem to have varying definitions...

Kidnapping

(...)

Non-family abduction was subdivided into "stereotypical kidnappings" which fit the public stereotype of the crime, and legal definition abductions, which are generally short-term forced movement or detention of children to facilitate another crime such as robbery or sexual assault..

    In 1999, there were an estimated 115 "stereotypical kidnappings," defined as abductions perpetrated by a stranger or slight acquaintance and involving a child who was transported more than 50 miles and detained overnight, held for ransom or with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed.

    In 1999, there were an estimated 58,200 child victims of non-family abductions, defined more broadly to include all non-family perpetrators (including friends and acquaintances as well as strangers) and crimes involving lesser amounts of forced movement or detention in addition to the more serious crimes entailed in stereotypical kidnapping.

http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/kidnapping/


CEOP:
Stranger abduction
Child abduction is an offence under Section 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984. Although such cases
are relatively rare, children face the risk of abduction by strangers who approach them in public.

Such strangers may be motivated to commit sexual offences. Alternatively, children may be
abducted as a result of family feuds.


Children and young people may also be targeted and groomed by adults for sexual abuse,
exploitation, criminality and other under illicit activities.
In the present information and
communication technology age, children are increasingly targeted and groomed online and through
other media devices. The term ‘stranger abduction’ may not be relevant in
these situations as the child or young person may feel that the abductor is known to them and will often refer to them as a ‘friend’.

http://ceop.police.uk/Documents/ceopdocs/Missing_scopingreport_2011.pdf

Just thinking out loud...
Ylenia was abducted (albeit not at home) and murdered by a stranger - someone who presumably would never have encountered her before. I guess that's the strictest sense of "stranger".

MariLuz was abducted and murdered by someone living locally, but seemingly would have been in the "slight acquaintance" category by virtue of living nearby. 

Jo Yates was killed at home and her body removed by a neighbour (Vincent Tabak), but he also seems to have been in the "slight acquaintance" category.

In an adult scenario, if you're in a bus queue and someone strikes up a conversation, is that person still a stranger or does he/she then become a "slight acquaintance"?

In a child scenario, would simply having said "thank you" to someone then constitute a "slight acquaintance"?

In Madeleine's case, her sphere of social contact was restricted, both because of her age and because she wasn't in her normal place of residence. In this case, I would consider a "stranger" to be either a total stranger (had never seen the person before) or someone she may have met for a minute or two, but whose presence in the apartment at night would be considered as alarming.

A slightly different thought... people assume that it was necessarily a male, but what if it was a female? Although I was two years older, some total stranger (female) came creeping into my bedroom late in the evening to check on me (halfway between a child-listening and child-minding service) and because it was a female, I just went straight back into a deep sleep. If it had been a strange man, I'd have screamed the place down.

Cariad

  • Guest
I meant someone with no connection to the victim.

Offline Carana

I meant someone with no connection to the victim.

I know... but I was wondering whether we were all thinking of "stranger" from the same perspective.

Cariad

  • Guest
I know... but I was wondering whether we were all thinking of "stranger" from the same perspective.

Off topic, but I've just done a search for the forensic thread you were talking about and I can't find it anyway. either it's been deleted or I'm being incompetent. Both are possible  ?{)(**


Offline Carana

Off topic, but I've just done a search for the forensic thread you were talking about and I can't find it anyway. either it's been deleted or I'm being incompetent. Both are possible  ?{)(**

Deleted. I believe I kept a few examples of the kinds of questions asked which seemed perfectly sensible to me.

Cariad

  • Guest
Ever heard of hitmen or so called contract-killers?   Not that uncommon.

Are you proposing that someone took a hit out on Madeleine? Another child in her nursery class possibly? Did she use up all the blue crayon, or get the role of Mary in the nativity once too often?

Well, it's possible I guess....


Offline Brietta

You need to download the picture to your PC then add it as an attachment to your post.

Thank you for finding that, but again, they were killed away from the home, not killed in the home, then their bodies removed.

Thanks for the advice, Cariad, I'll try that next time I want to include pictures.      8((()*/

You are correct that this pervert in Australia kidnapped living children.
 
But is a very difficult assignment you have given us. 
Unless irrefutable evidence of death is left at the scene for example, so much blood life could not be sustained, or a witness to killing, it is likely only the perpetrator would know whether the victim was alive or dead when removed from the crime scene.

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Cariad

  • Guest
Thanks for the advice, Cariad, I'll try that next time I want to include pictures.      8((()*/

You are correct that this pervert in Australia kidnapped living children.
 
But is a very difficult assignment you have given us. 
Unless irrefutable evidence of death is left at the scene for example, so much blood life could not be sustained, or a witness to killing, it is likely only the perpetrator would know whether the victim was alive or dead when removed from the crime scene.

It is a difficult assignment! I tried to find something myself before starting the thread and came up with nothing.  Google wasn't even any help. There's such a wide pool of knowledge here that I was kind of hoping someone would know of a similar situation.

Time and place of death are fairly easy to ascertain. It's usually possible to tell if a body has been moved.

The only cases I have found of a victim being removed from their own property is when the perpetrator is known to them.

As someone pointed out, this doesn't mean that it can't have happened in this case, but it does point to it being highly unlikely, especially if you then need to either dismiss the dog alerts or find coincidental reasons for them.

It was postulated as a reason for DCI Redwood saying Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment. I just wanted to look at it a bit deeper and see what we could jointly come up with.

The short answer is nothing  8)-)))

Estuarine

  • Guest
Actually Estaurine, I think that is rather clever. I liked it.

Try not to be too precious Estaurine; that was fun.
I wasn't being precious I was being f*****g sarcastic. You should try to learn the difference.
If you thought it was clever you should read Julie Burchill on Stephen Fry.

Offline pegasus

IMO the murder by Tabak in Bristol does meet the description of murder in victim's residence by stranger who then removes body. AFAIK perp and victim had never spoken to each other until the evil crime, so although the perp was a neighbour he was a stranger.

Cariad

  • Guest
IMO the murder by Tabak in Bristol does meet the description of murder in victim's residence by stranger who then removes body. AFAIK perp and victim had never spoken to each other until the evil crime, so although the perp was a neighbour he was a stranger.

They lived in the same building. That's pretty connected.

Cariad

  • Guest
With a wall in between?

Yes, it was the flat next door, not in the same building. Still, not exactly strangers.

Cariad

  • Guest
Oh I don't know.  How well do you know your neighbours?

Very well. you?