Are the Tapas Rogatory statements as released by Duarte Levy genuine?

[icabodcrane]

Really?

Perhaps if you bothered to actually read the first post I made, instead of simply dismissing it and read it more than once if you need to to understand it, then you might realise what the normal practice is in Portugal and why this was an exceptional situation.

But to simplify if for you as you struggled with the long post earlier.

Journalists do NOT get a copy of the files released to them at the end of a case.

They get limited access by appointment to VIEW the files and they are allowed to make notes about those files. They are NOT allowed to make direct copies of those files.

They are allowed to use them only as a tool to assist their research into the case in question and its outcome.

You said  :

"They  (  the police files )  were provided as a tool for research for journalists"

What does that  MEAN  ?   ...  explain it

It is one of the most ridiculous sentences  I have ever read on this forum  (  and I've read a few  )

[gilet]

You said  :

"They  (  the police files )  were provided as a tool for research for journalists"

What does that  MEAN  ?   ...  explain it

It is one of the most ridiculous sentences  I have ever read on this forum  (  and I've read a few  )

Having explained it twice for you on this thread in the last hour or so, and having tidied up the quotes you bungled in your post when I replied to you) I think I have done enough of the work. Perhaps if you slowed down and tried to take it all in and actually read the explanation you would learn something.

[gilet]

Here, in case you missed it in the post you quoted.

But to simplify if for you as you struggled with the long post earlier.

Journalists do NOT get a copy of the files released to them at the end of a case.

They get limited access by appointment to VIEW the files and they are allowed to make notes about those files. They are NOT allowed to make direct copies of those files.

They are allowed to use them only as a tool to assist their research into the case in question and its outcome.

I'll add a bit more to help you. Something else you appear to be unaware of, is that when a case goes to court in Portugal, a great deal of information is not given in open court where journalists can see and hear it. Much is dealt with in submissions directly to the Judge.

When a journalist wants to do research after a case has ended then they can make an appointment with the person who holds the records of the case, they can then go and see those records (including the submissions and other information not previously revealed in court) and use them as a tool (in much the same way a historian uses archive material as the basis of his research) for developing an article or book even about the case.

But the law prevents that journalist from copying the material directly. They can only make notes and refer to it, not offer it all, lock stock and barrel as part of their article or book.

[icabodcrane]

Having explained it twice for you on this thread in the last hour or so, and having tidied up the quotes you bungled in your post when I replied to you) I think I have done enough of the work. Perhaps if you slowed down and tried to take it all in and actually read the explanation you would learn something.

Thanks for sorting out my making a mess of the quote function   

Now,  would you please explain where you got the impression  that the police files were released with the intention of them being used  as  'a tool for research for journalists' 

Where did you get that idea from  ?  ...  and what does it   mean  ?   

[gilet]

Thanks for sorting out my making a mess of the quote function   

Now,  would you please explain where you got the impression  that the police files were released with the intention of them being used  as  'a tool for research for journalists' 

Where did you get that idea from  ?  ...  and what does it   mean  ?

I give up. I have explained it now three times to you. Perhaps the concept is simply too complex. But the idea of journalists or researchers or others using archival material (such as court records) as a tool to develop their article, book or whatever is standard practice in their lines of work.

It is something which most people will recognise as a normal way of undertaking journalism (especially investigative journalism) but also more day to day journalism too, particularly when as in Portugal a court case result may rest on material that can only be seen in archive format after the closure or archival of the case.

[icabodcrane]

Here, in case you missed it in the post you quoted.

I'll add a bit more to help you. Something else you appear to be unaware of, is that when a case goes to court in Portugal, a great deal of information is not given in open court where journalists can see and hear it. Much is dealt with in submissions directly to the Judge.

When a journalist wants to do research after a case has ended then they can make an appointment with the person who holds the records of the case, they can then go and see those records (including the submissions and other information not previously revealed in court) and use them as a tool (in much the same way a historian uses archive material as the basis of his research) for developing an article or book even about the case.

But the law prevents that journalist from copying the material directly. They can only make notes and refer to it, not offer it all, lock stock and barrel as part of their article or book.

Where do the McCann lawyers come into this  'tool provision'   ?   

They weren't journalists doing  'research'  afterall  ...  so  how far reaching is  this  alluded to  'special dispensation'   required to get hold of those files 

[gilet]

The question really is one of evidential value.

If a document's history can be traced precisely and there are no situations in which that document can have been altered then its evidential value can be judged as very high indeed.

If, for example, we had seen the OFFICIAL FILES posted in dozens of newspapers with the journalists stating that they are an exact record as handed over by the Portuguese, more reliability could be placed on them.

As it is, they have never been sourced in the main-stream media.

As it is NO reputable journalist has ever offered a set of them to the public in any form.

The Portuguese authorities have never issued a copy for the public to read online, for example.

ALL we have is a copy which was posted on blogs and whose source is an extremely dodgy so-called journalists who has no credentials to call himself such a thing.

There is no way of knowing how reliable they are.

They may be 100% genuine of course.

But then again they may have been tampered with in any possible way.

Neither you nor I can know with any certainty whether they are 100% genuine, have been tampered with slightly or have been tampered with more seriously.

We just don't know.

A particular cause for concern is the series of Tapas Group Rogatory Interviews which were not released in the format or at the time of the other material. The original paperwork has not been produced, nor any paging references as with all the other material. There is simply no way of knowing if they are entirely real or not.

[gilet]

Where do the McCann lawyers come into this  'tool provision'   ?   

They weren't journalists doing  'research'  afterall  ...  so  how far reaching is  this  alluded to  'special dispensation'   required to get hold of those files

As participants, the arguidos in the case the McCanns and Robert Murat were entitled under Portuguese Law to a full copy of the files.

No special dispensation needed. Its standard practice in most countries (exceptions would include North Korea and China) for those directly involved in a case and their lawyers to have copies of all the files in the case. Don't you remember Tony Bennett in his case talking about the tens of thousands of pages which he had to get through, all the big ring binders full of pages and pages of stuff?

How do you think a case would work if the lawyers and those involved in the case could not see the documents relating to the case. It would either become a very Kafkaesque situation or revert to a kind of legal Brian Rix farce.

[icabodcrane]

The question really is one of evidential value.

If a document's history can be traced precisely and there are no situations in which that document can have been altered then its evidential value can be judged as very high indeed.

If, for example, we had seen the OFFICIAL FILES posted in dozens of newspapers with the journalists stating that they are an exact record as handed over by the Portuguese, more reliability could be placed on them.

As it is, they have never been sourced in the main-stream media.

As it is NO reputable journalist has ever offered a set of them to the public in any form.

The Portuguese authorities have never issued a copy for the public to read online, for example.

ALL we have is a copy which was posted on blogs and whose source is an extremely dodgy so-called journalists who has no credentials to call himself such a thing.

There is no way of knowing how reliable they are.

They may be 100% genuine of course.

But then again they may have been tampered with in any possible way.

Neither you nor I can know with any certainty whether they are 100% genuine, have been tampered with slightly or have been tampered with more seriously.

We just don't know.

A particular cause for concern is the series of Tapas Group Rogatory Interviews which were not released in the format or at the time of the other material. The original paperwork has not been produced, nor any paging references as with all the other material. There is simply no way of knowing if they are entirely real or not.

And you  think Carter Ruck  would let that go unchallenged ?

[ censored word ] stuff this is 

[gilet]

And you  think Carter Ruck  would let that go unchallenged ?

[ censored word ] stuff this is

You really do not get it do you?

You are placing all your faith in a WUM called Levy who began distributing this material at the same time as the McCanns began to suggest that the content of Amaral's book was going to be challenged.

Why go for the monkeys when the organ grinder can be more effectively dealt with?

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Placing your faith in a WUM is a foolish thing to do.

If you think that demanding reliable evidence and assessing carefully, the evidential value of that evidence is "[ censored word ] stuff" then somewhere your wires have crossed.

[icabodcrane]

You really do not get it do you?

You are placing all your faith in a WUM called Levy who began distributing this material at the same time as the McCanns began to suggest that the content of Amaral's book was going to be challenged.

Why go for the monkeys when the organ grinder can be more effectively dealt with?

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Placing your faith in a WUM is a foolish thing to do.

If you think that demanding reliable evidence and assessing carefully, the evidential value of that evidence is "[ censored word ] stuff" then somewhere your wires have crossed.

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories  ...  and that is what  you are presenting

[gilet]

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories  ...  and that it was you are presenting

If you cannot see that there is a difference between my accurate statement that there is a reliability issue with the PJ Files and a conspiracy theory then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to place your faith in files for which the only source is a WUM called Levy then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to ignore the fact that there is no original scan available of the Tapas Rogatory Statements on which you base your questions about inconsistencies then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to ignore the fact that unlike all the other PJ Files these Tapas Rogatory statements have no official PJ page referencing then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to ignore the fact that the Tapas Rogatory Statements were not released by Levy when he released ALL the other information but deliberately delayed by him for unknown reasons then that is your problem not mine.

I know that there is a potential serious flaw in them.

I have not claimed that there is definitely such a flaw but till I am sure it does not exist, then I am very wary of the content being precisely as recorded by Leicestershire Police.  You carry on with your faith in a WUM as long as you like. Its no skin off my nose.

[icabodcrane]

If you cannot see that there is a difference between my accurate statement that there is a reliability issue with the PJ Files and a conspiracy theory then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to place your faith in files for which the only source is a WUM called Levy then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to ignore the fact that there is no original scan available of the Tapas Rogatory Statements on which you base your questions about inconsistencies then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to ignore the fact that unlike all the other PJ Files these Tapas Rogatory statements have no official PJ page referencing then that is your problem not mine.

If you choose to ignore the fact that the Tapas Rogatory Statements were not released by Levy when he released ALL the other information but deliberately delayed by him for unknown reasons then that is your problem not mine.

I know that there is a potential serious flaw in them.

I have not claimed that there is definitely such a flaw but till I am sure it does not exist, then I am very wary of the content being precisely as recorded by Leicestershire Police.  You carry on with your faith in a WUM as long as you like. Its no skin off my nose.

 

You are funny gilet

You put such effort into presenting your posts in a suitably  serious  way  ...  when what you are actually  saying  is a load of old [ censored word ] nonsense

[Mr Gray]

You are funny gilet

You put such effort into presenting your posts in a suitably  serious  way  ...  when what you are actually  saying  is a load of old [ censored word ] nonsense

The whole accusation against the McCanns is a conspiracy theory...with talk of notices,freemasons...involvement of governments..  you would have to be blind not to see that. I see nothing wrong with questioning evidence and its sources.

This development is very interesting and explains alot

[stephen25000]

The whole accusation against the McCanns is a conspiracy theory...with talk of notices,freemasons...involvement of governments..  you would have to be blind not to see that. I see nothing wrong with questioning evidence and its sources.

This development is very interesting and explains alot

What, you didn't know that gerry is a member of the strange handshake brigade ?