Author Topic: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?  (Read 56422 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2014, 07:04:59 PM »
When push comes to shove, there is no evidence of any crime by the McCanns, there is no theory which can possibly explain the involvement of the parents of Madeleine in any crime.  Being a very minor adviser to a government-set-up quango is not a crime.

And there is no explanation for the actions of those people on the internet and in real life who wish to pursue the McCanns for possible crimes without any evidence, without any logical theory as to how they are involved, other than the bizarre response that these people "see things clearer than others".

Is the ability to "see things clearer than others" a way of saying that they don't give a damm about the law, the need for evidence or any of the other niceties of civilised society and prefer just to find the justice they see from behind their blinkers or what exactly do you mean by that phrase?

Certainly, for anything Amaral proposes to have the slightest chance of being correct, there would have to be evidence that Kate and Gerry were simultaneously absent from the restaurant at some point between their (joint) arrival and Kate's alert at around 2200.

There isn't!

On that rock, all except theories so extreme and far-fetched even Amaral rejects them, founder ...

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2014, 07:41:36 PM »
I believe that this thread has served its purpose.

Every contributor when dealing with the question posed has admitted that there is absolutely no evidence which shows the McCanns guilty of any crime whatsoever.

And equally, there is no evidence of abduction.

Anyone who claims to know for certain what happened in PDL or who claims the McCanns are definitely guilty of any crime is simply fooling him or her self and relying on indicators or suggestions rather than actual evidence.

Obviously anyone claiming that the Mccanns are definitely not guilty are equally mistaken then?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2014, 07:49:01 PM »
Obviously anyone claiming that the Mccanns are definitely not guilty are equally mistaken then?

You can never rule out the (technical) possibility of something at present unknown coming to light which might implicate any or all of the (original) 3 arguidos.

Vastly different from saying that there is (now!) anything to implicate any of those 3.

There isn't ...

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2014, 07:51:37 PM »
You can never rule out the (technical) possibility of something at present unknown coming to light which might implicate any or all of the (original) 3 arguidos.

Vastly different from saying that there is (now!) anything to implicate any of those 3.

There isn't ...

...and you have proof of that ?

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2014, 07:56:00 PM »
You can never rule out the (technical) possibility of something at present unknown coming to light which might implicate any or all of the (original) 3 arguidos.

Vastly different from saying that there is (now!) anything to implicate any of those 3.

There isn't ...

I never said there was did I?

One of the annoying things about this case is that you aren't (one isn't) allowed to be a fence sitter. The second you dare question whether the Mccanns might have had some involvement, you're immediately an evil anti attacking the parents of a missing child.

I've been posting here for a while now and it's more or less a year since I read the files and got interested. My husband will see me on this forum and every few weeks will say "made up you mind yet?" referring to the involvement of the Mccanns.

My answer is still "nope".

Offline Albertini

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2014, 07:56:17 PM »
Good, another person who admits that there is no evidence which shows that the McCanns are guilty of any crime.

There may well be indications, suggestions or other such and these can be discussed in another thread which I have suggested Icabodcrane should start as they are a separate issue. This thread has shown without doubt that there is no actual evidence against the McCanns.


And just to refer to your comment about the incompleteness of the case.

Let's not forget that the comment by SY that neither the McCanns, nor their friends are suspects or persons of interest was made after SY had done a complete review of the case and had done a partial further investigation of the case which may even have included re-interviewing relevant witnesses.

It was not a statement made in jest as is the wont of certain posters here, but it was a serious statement made in public which indicated the clear direction, based on review and further investigation which experienced police officers were taking.

It is also perfectly clear that the PJ in their further investigation are not chasing shadows regarding the McCanns and are concentrating on other issues.

None of this if proof that the McCanns are not guilty of a crime but it is suggestive of such and might make a good future thread.

The fact remains that after a lengthy police investigation, after a full SY review, after a full PJ review, after a partial re-investigation by the PJ and after a partial re-investigation by SY, there is not a shred of known evidence which shows the McCanns guilty of any crime.

That has been demonstrated on this thread where people have attempted to offer such evidence and failed.

The point you are conveniently missing or dismissing is that the investigation was incomplete . It was curtailed at the point of the PJ wanting to test the veracity of the witnesses oral statements and was stopped by those very witnesses, which in itself is hugely suggestive.

Had the group taken part and been unable to explain the discrepancies more evidence could have been uncovered as a consequence.

I'm not and have never said they are guilty. I'm saying the original investigation needed to be completed and that they need to answer questions and be tested as to the veracity of their original statements.

I'm saying they should be treated as suspects as the last people and only witnesses to the event and being the people, I believe, are statistically more likely to have been involved than a stranger, up to and until clear definitive and independently corroborated evidence comes to light which backs up their version of events. Which is not just to be applied to the McCann's but any other person in any other crime investigated by the police and a cornerstone of investigation good practice.

This is not about a witch hunt against the MCCann's, it's about them being treated and investigated  in the same way anyone else would be in a similar situation. It's about witnesses not being able to corrupt and frustrate official investigations into a small child's disappearance for their own unknown motives.

I'm sure that is the position of most McCann sceptics.

That does not mean however we cannot come up with our own hypotheses based on the evidence we have before us.

In relation to the SY announcement made months ago it's starting to get tedious. Let's be clear  given the reopening of the case Andy Redwood had no choice but to say they were not suspects even if this was not true. He could not say anything else.

For him to say they were suspects when his investigation was just starting would have been both unprofessional and prejudicial to any future court case. How many investigations start by naming suspects? SY have to build their own case against their suspects from their own evidence gathered not by reviewing another country's police force and saying " well the PJ didn't gain enough evidence to take to a court so let's announce to the world the McCann's are suspects based on that same evidence".

To announce that would have increased the media interest in the case making it incredibly difficult for the investigation to function.

Let's also be clear we have not seen any files on the SY investigation or the PJ re-investigation so we cannot make assumptions until we see evidence brought to a court or released files. We have no evidence whatsoever of any relevant witnesses being reinterviewed either.

We have media briefings to the effect of the McCann's not being suspects which could or could not be true,  and which also could be revised later as the investigation progresses.

The media stated direction of the investigation does not necessarily encompass all the Yard's thinking and it is entirely possible that the investigation is looking at multiple theories and suspects. In fact didn't Recwood admit as much in his recent statement about Madeleine not leaving the apartment alive?

Certainly the yard will need at some point to resolve the issues in the statements if they want to bring a third party suspect to court. A defence lawyer could say for example, "how did my client get into the apartment when Rachel Oldfield said in her statement the shutter was down on the patio window."

In order to convict an abductor these issues will need to be ironed out before they go to court.

So I think the more nuanced approach is to keep ones powder dry about Redwood's proclamation until such time as a suspect is brought before a court.

To simply keep repeating "but Andy says they're not suspects" is tedious and intellectually flatulant if one is to apply a bit of thought and logic to what was said and why it was said.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 07:59:16 PM by Albertini »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2014, 09:15:55 PM »
Are you willing to elaborate?

Of course!

Amaral suggests that Kate found Madeleine.

He insists that because Eddie picked up certain items of her clothing in his mouth, an untrained and deleterious act for any dog attending a crime scene (but I mustn't get distracted).

For a moment, indulge Amaral's fantasy.  Kate has just found the body of her daughter.

Gerry is oblivious and unaware in the restaurant.

Kate pulls herself together, returns to the restaurant and breaks traumatic news to Gerry without anyone else noticing.

They hatch a plan (without anyone else noticing)

Gerry takes his leave of the restaurant, gathers up the remains of his daughter, whisks them past the noses of the Smiths to hide (Amaral's exact word) them on the beach.

In the meanwhile, Kate takes her leave the restaurant, then returns to raise a fake "alarm", at almost exactly the time that Gerry is whisking Madeleine's remains past the noses of the Smiths.

Where, in the files, is there commentary on what efforts were made to find to Gerry and tell him what happened after Kate's alert, including where he was when found and who found him, if, in fact, Gerry was anywhere other than in the restaurant?

Non-existent!

That can surely only be because Joao Carlos (who wrote the final PJ report) called it right to say Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of Kate's alert.

Offline Albertini

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2014, 09:24:19 PM »
Which statements?


How about Gerry's for a start:

"The deponent, had had the wrong idea that Mathew had seen the bedroom shutters closed when he was there at 21.30 and therefore he thought the disappearance would have taken place between 21.30 and 22.00, but now  he is fully convinced that the abduction took place during the period of time between his check at 21.05 and Mathew's visit at 21.30."


Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2014, 09:29:19 PM »

How about Gerry's for a start:

"The deponent, had had the wrong idea that Mathew had seen the bedroom shutters closed when he was there at 21.30 and therefore he thought the disappearance would have taken place between 21.30 and 22.00, but now  he is fully convinced that the abduction took place during the period of time between his check at 21.05 and Mathew's visit at 21.30."

Amazing insight Mr McCann has.
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline peter claridge

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2014, 09:53:42 PM »

How about Gerry's for a start:

"The deponent, had had the wrong idea that Mathew had seen the bedroom shutters closed when he was there at 21.30 and therefore he thought the disappearance would have taken place between 21.30 and 22.00, but now  he is fully convinced that the abduction took place during the period of time between his check at 21.05 and Mathew's visit at 21.30."

But that is just Gerry having to correct one of the many errors in his first statement.  Tannerman, to give the invented abductor his first name was nailed into the fabricated timelines from the off (otherwise known as the Smith sighting) the problem being the 40/45 minute delay between Tannerman (fabricated) and Smithman (real) which has necessitated the removal of Tannerman.  Smithman will never be identified

Offline pathfinder73

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #115 on: April 16, 2014, 10:16:06 PM »
Of course!

Amaral suggests that Kate found Madeleine.

He insists that because Eddie picked up certain items of her clothing in his mouth, an untrained and deleterious act for any dog attending a crime scene (but I mustn't get distracted).

For a moment, indulge Amaral's fantasy.  Kate has just found the body of her daughter.

Gerry is oblivious and unaware in the restaurant.

Kate pulls herself together, returns to the restaurant and breaks traumatic news to Gerry without anyone else noticing.

They hatch a plan (without anyone else noticing)

Gerry takes his leave of the restaurant, gathers up the remains of his daughter, whisks them past the noses of the Smiths to hide (Amaral's exact word) them on the beach.

In the meanwhile, Kate takes her leave the restaurant, then returns to raise a fake "alarm", at almost exactly the time that Gerry is whisking Madeleine's remains past the noses of the Smiths.

Where, in the files, is there commentary on what efforts were made to find to Gerry and tell him what happened after Kate's alert, including where he was when found and who found him, if, in fact, Gerry was anywhere other than in the restaurant?

Non-existent!

That can surely only be because Joao Carlos (who wrote the final PJ report) called it right to say Gerry was in the restaurant at the time of Kate's alert.

If any traumatic breaking news happened it would've been when Gerry returned from tennis.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2014, 10:32:09 PM »
In what way?
Well put it this way - if the McCann friends are not covering up for Kate and Gerry then their witness statements should be taken as true accounts of events as they recall them.  Do you accept this? 

Offline Mr Gray

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2014, 08:19:26 AM »
The point you are conveniently missing or dismissing is that the investigation was incomplete . It was curtailed at the point of the PJ wanting to test the veracity of the witnesses oral statements and was stopped by those very witnesses, which in itself is hugely suggestive.

Had the group taken part and been unable to explain the discrepancies more evidence could have been uncovered as a consequence.

I'm not and have never said they are guilty. I'm saying the original investigation needed to be completed and that they need to answer questions and be tested as to the veracity of their original statements.

I'm saying they should be treated as suspects as the last people and only witnesses to the event and being the people, I believe, are statistically more likely to have been involved than a stranger, up to and until clear definitive and independently corroborated evidence comes to light which backs up their version of events. Which is not just to be applied to the McCann's but any other person in any other crime investigated by the police and a cornerstone of investigation good practice.

This is not about a witch hunt against the MCCann's, it's about them being treated and investigated  in the same way anyone else would be in a similar situation. It's about witnesses not being able to corrupt and frustrate official investigations into a small child's disappearance for their own unknown motives.

I'm sure that is the position of most McCann sceptics.

That does not mean however we cannot come up with our own hypotheses based on the evidence we have before us.

In relation to the SY announcement made months ago it's starting to get tedious. Let's be clear  given the reopening of the case Andy Redwood had no choice but to say they were not suspects even if this was not true. He could not say anything else.

For him to say they were suspects when his investigation was just starting would have been both unprofessional and prejudicial to any future court case. How many investigations start by naming suspects? SY have to build their own case against their suspects from their own evidence gathered not by reviewing another country's police force and saying " well the PJ didn't gain enough evidence to take to a court so let's announce to the world the McCann's are suspects based on that same evidence".

To announce that would have increased the media interest in the case making it incredibly difficult for the investigation to function.

Let's also be clear we have not seen any files on the SY investigation or the PJ re-investigation so we cannot make assumptions until we see evidence brought to a court or released files. We have no evidence whatsoever of any relevant witnesses being reinterviewed either.

We have media briefings to the effect of the McCann's not being suspects which could or could not be true,  and which also could be revised later as the investigation progresses.

The media stated direction of the investigation does not necessarily encompass all the Yard's thinking and it is entirely possible that the investigation is looking at multiple theories and suspects. In fact didn't Recwood admit as much in his recent statement about Madeleine not leaving the apartment alive?

Certainly the yard will need at some point to resolve the issues in the statements if they want to bring a third party suspect to court. A defence lawyer could say for example, "how did my client get into the apartment when Rachel Oldfield said in her statement the shutter was down on the patio window."

In order to convict an abductor these issues will need to be ironed out before they go to court.

So I think the more nuanced approach is to keep ones powder dry about Redwood's proclamation until such time as a suspect is brought before a court.

To simply keep repeating "but Andy says they're not suspects" is tedious and intellectually flatulant if one is to apply a bit of thought and logic to what was said and why it was said.

Once again you dress up your opinion as fact. Why did Redwood say they were not suspects...the most obvious reason is that they are not suspects. Portugal has also said the same thing. you just can't accept this and want to make up a reason to pretend it isn't true. Who is your very long post supposed to convince? Redwood didn't even have to say anything if he didn't want to.

Redwood has said the McCanns are not suspects..that's a fact.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2014, 08:27:24 AM »
Once again you dress up your opinion as fact. Why did Redwood say they were not suspects...the most obvious reason is that they are not suspects. Portugal has also said the same thing. you just can't accept this and want to make up a reason to pretend it isn't true. Who is your very long post supposed to convince? Redwood didn't even have to say anything if he didn't want to.

Redwood has said the McCanns are not suspects..that's a fact.

It is also a fact that arguido status can be reactivated for up to 20 years after the initial period.

It is also a fact that the type of crime is undetermined.

It is also a fact that SY have no power to act in Portugal.


Offline Mr Gray

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2014, 08:35:21 AM »
It is also a fact that arguido status can be reactivated for up to 20 years after the initial period.

It is also a fact that the type of crime is undetermined.

It is also a fact that SY have no power to act in Portugal.

Al true ...as is the fact that the McCanns are not suspects...but albertini wants to ignore it