What reasons are there to doubt the McCanns' version of events ?

[icabodcrane]

To those who are sceptical of the the McCanns' version of events,   what raises those doubts  ?

What available information or evidence leads you to question the version put forward by Kate and Gerry McCann  ? 

For me,  one such doubt is raised by the witness statement of the upstairs neighbour, Mrs Fenn,  who says she heard a child crying in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter on Tuesday night

That raises a doubt about the McCanns claim that they had been checking on their children every half hour

Now,  I don't intend for this thread to descend into the usual back and forth of Mrs Fenn's reliability as a witness   ...   I am just saying that her testimony  raises a doubt  about the McCanns' version of events ...  which it undeniably does

What else raises doubts  ? 

[Angelo222]

The inconsistencies in the stories and the obstinate refusal to participate in a reconstruction does it for me Ica.   I cannot believe they collectively could have done that to that little tot and put their own wellbeing and careers first.  All this bull about searching which they have never personally taken part in.  Why is that??

[Carana]

To those who are sceptical of the the McCanns' version of events,   what raises those doubts  ?

What available information or evidence leads you to question the version put forward by Kate and Gerry McCann  ? 

For me,  one such doubt is raised by the witness statement of the upstairs neighbour, Mrs Fenn,  who says she heard a child crying in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter on Tuesday night

That raises a doubt about the McCanns claim that they had been checking on their children every half hour

Now,  I don't intend for this thread to descend into the usual back and forth of Mrs Fenn's reliability as a witness   ...   I am just saying that her testimony  raises a doubt  about the McCanns' version of events ...  which it undeniably does

What else raises doubts  ?

There is at least one Fenn thread on here, so no need to repeat everything.

However, I do have questions as you raise the issue:

- Why did it take the PJ so long to question an elderly person who had been the victim of an attempted burglary in the flat above the week before
- Was Mrs Fenn's statement cross-checked, either by other statements, phone call records, or by a forensic sound check to verify what she may have heard?

[slartibartfast]

 My ongoing list...

Dog Alerts
Wiped Cell Phone records
Inconsistent Statements
Deep Sleeping Twins
Refusing to Answer Questions
Leaving PDL quickly after saying would never leave
Excessive use of Litigation
Body Language
Unrestricted Fund
Smith Sighting
Crying in the Night
Leaving Twins for extended periods (plus to raise alarm)

[icabodcrane]

There is at least one Fenn thread on here, so no need to repeat everything.

However, I do have questions as you raise the issue:

- Why did it take the PJ so long to question an elderly person who had been the victim of an attempted burglary in the flat above the week before
- Was Mrs Fenn's statement cross-checked, either by other statements, phone call records, or by a forensic sound check to verify what she may have heard?

I don't intend going over the minutiae of Mrs Fenn's statement  ...  that is not the point of this thread

Whether Mrs Fenn was correct or not in her recollection is not relevant to the question of  DOUBT

The fact that she said  she heard a child crying for an hour and a quarter is enough to raise a  doubt  about the McCanns version of their checking regime

That  'doubt'  exists  because of Mrs Fenn's statement  ...  I mean,  she might have been absolutely accurate in her recall,  mightn't she  ?

Neither you, nor I know whether she was or not   ...   so there is an element of doubt in both our minds,  isn't there  ? 

[Brietta]

The inconsistencies in the stories and the obstinate refusal to participate in a reconstruction does it for me Ica.   I cannot believe they collectively could have done that to that little tot and put their own wellbeing and careers first.  All this bull about searching which they have never personally taken part in.  Why is that??

Where exactly is the source of your information that the Drs McCann refused to participate in a reconstruction?
 
A summary of key points from 'The Truth of the Lie', 27 July 2008

44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible.
The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html

Apensos IX Vol I
Page 139
Public Ministry of Portimao
Case Section
Case 201/07 GALGS
Dear Sir
Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
Rogério Alves
Lawyer
(Sent by email)

[jassi]

Where exactly is the source of your information that the Drs McCann refused to participate in a reconstruction?
 
A summary of key points from 'The Truth of the Lie', 27 July 2008

44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible.
The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html



Apensos IX Vol I
Page 139
Public Ministry of Portimao
Case Section
Case 201/07 GALGS
Dear Sir
Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
Rogério Alves
Lawyer
(Sent by email)

They really didn't need to - they knew their friends would decline 

[Carana]

I don't intend going over the minutiae of Mrs Fenn's statement  ...  that is not the point of this thread

Whether Mrs Fenn was correct or not in her recollection is not relevant to the question of  DOUBT

The fact that she said  she heard a child crying for an hour and a quarter is enough to raise a  doubt  about the McCanns version of their checking regime

That  'doubt'  exists  because of Mrs Fenn's statement  ...  I mean,  she might have been absolutely accurate in her recall,  mightn't she  ?

Neither you, nor I know whether she was or not   ...   so there is an element of doubt in both our minds,  isn't there  ?

Yes, I understand the "doubt" element. But what did the PJ actually do to eliminate or confirm that doubt?

ETA: In your opinion, is it normal to only question an elderly victim of an attempted burglary in the apartment just above several months after the disappearance?

[Brietta]

They really didn't need to - they knew their friends would decline 

Then it is wrong to claim that the Drs McCann refused to participate in a reconstruction, and saying so on a forum which deals only in factual claims which can be corroborated independently is also wrong.

If the reconstruction had taken place in May 2007 as a means of helping to find Madeleine I doubt if there would have been any dissent.
A year later, when the PJ had stated Madeleine was dead and her parents suspected of having a hand in that death, the situation had changed.


[Processo/16 - VOLUME XVIa.pdf P106 ]
Vol XVI p. 4237
xx xxxxxx xxxx
Exeter
Devon
xxx xxx
23rd April 2008
Re: Re-enactment of Events of 3/5/2008
Dear Stuart, Many thanks for your email, and for forwarding the reply from Senhor Rebelo. Also, thanks to you and your colleagues for arranging the re-interviews.
It is somewhat reassuring to see in writing from the PJ that there are "no suspicions over [us] regarding the commission of any criminal acts." However, we heard something similar in the weeks before Kate and Gerry were made arguidos! Additionally, the thrust of the PJ's closed questions during the re-interviews seemed only to focus on Kate and Gerry's culpability, suspicion about our written timeline or who involved the media.
After a year of lies, accusations and intrusion, I am sure that the Mr Rebelo can appreciate our complete revulsion at what Kate and Gerry have been forced to endure. Furthermore, we cannot help but feel that the re-interviews and re-enactment are all too little and far too late.
However, the last thing we would ever want is a standoff between us and the PJ, something that would only delight and benefit the press. Kate and Gerry desperately need the cloud of suspicion over them to be emphatically lifted, and the PJ need to complete their investigation. We also appreciate the legal obstacles to removing Kate and Gerry's arguido status, but would request that prior to us agreeing to the re-enactment the PJ:
• publicly dispels the damaging and disturbing lies churned out by the Portuguese press regarding alleged changes to statements, re-interviews or alleged lack of co-operation.
• publicly states there are "no suspicions over [us] regarding the commission of any criminal acts." This in no way compromises judicial secrecy. But without some official intervention on their part, a return for the re-enactment seems little more than a perfect opportunity for the press to speculate and libel us all once again.
We are very keen to help an investigation aiming to establish what's happened to Madeleine, but have no desire to assist one that seeks only to d**n our innocent friends. By actively restoring the focus on Madeleine and robustly dispelling the countless speculation, the PJ can expect our continued co- operation.
Yours sincerely,
Russell O'Brien & Jane Tanner
PS: We certainly do not request any specific reimbursement for travel or accommodation.

[Carana]

Were any of the burgled apartments forensically tested or not? If not, what could link or invalidate any of those to the disappearance?

The forensic search of 5A was an emergency deployment, but was not a thorough forensic investigation. Hairs on her bed were not received by the PT forensic lab. There are still other unidentified hairs, depite having profiles of those known to have been in the apartment. Who did those hairs belong to?

[Mr Gray]

I don't think there are any significant reasons to doubt the McCanns ...and as we know SY must agree as they are at present not regarded as suspects

[Wonderfulspam]

Kate McCann, Madeleine.

"Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents."

(End Quote)

Less than 12 hours after Madeleine was apparently seen being carried away by Bundleman, Kate believed her daughter could be found inside a big dumpster type bin,

Infact she considers it so likely that she pleaded with God for her not to be in there.

She doesn't mention searching any more bins. Once she found that one empty, she didn't need to look in any more.

[jassi]

Kate McCann, Madeleine.

"Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents."

(End Quote)

Less than 12 hours after Madeleine was apparently seen being carried away by Bundleman, Kate believed her daughter could be found inside a big dumpster type bin,

Infact she considers it so likely that she pleaded with God for her not to be in there.

She doesn't mention searching any more bins. Once she found that one empty, she didn't need to look in any more.

Perhaps that was THE one and had been emptied.

[Cariad]

Do you find it unreasonable that relatives who'd flown over to help could have been trusted to help take care of the twins and maintained a normal routine for them during the initial traumatic meltdown? Would it have helped the search for Madeleine if the parents had just kept the twins inside an apartment and just remained clutching the twins without actually trying to do anything else?

Should the 2-year-old twins have been dragged to the Fatima shrine, the Vatican or anywhere else they went?

No I don't find it unreasonable, but I do find that in itself odd. Who could operate on the basis of reason in a time like that?

I do find going to shrines and the Vatican extremely bizarre. They left their other children in a place they believed that an abductor was on the loose and flew off for a couple of days? Nah. No way. That's almost as bad as leaving the children out of eye sight and ear shot while dining every evening. 

[peter claridge]

Fabricated timelines
Fabricated statements
Ignoring the Smith sighting
Fabricated rogs
Dismissing the dog alerts
Attempting to rubbish the dogs
Clarence Mitchell
Refusing to do a reconstruction (yes they did)
Deleting phone records
Refusing to answer questions
Running away
This forum
Body language
Crimewatch
Scotland yard
Attempting to silence Amaral
Pretend P.I.
Fabricated sightings
Mrs Fenn
Dianne Webster