Author Topic: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?  (Read 102890 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #270 on: May 21, 2014, 03:18:05 PM »
The issue at stake in this libel trial is quite simple actually.  Dr Amaral has made certain claims in his book 'The Truth of the Lie'  which the McCanns claim libels them and damaged the search for Madeleine. In order to succeed their lawyer has to set out how the libel came about and evidence it.

Until it is known what befell Madeleine I cannot see how either side can possibly succeed.

Murat didn't have to prove that he didn't abduct her, yet eventually won his case in Portugal...

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #271 on: May 21, 2014, 03:46:06 PM »
The issue at stake in this libel trial is quite simple actually.  Dr Amaral has made certain claims in his book 'The Truth of the Lie'  which the McCanns claim libels them and damaged the search for Madeleine. In order to succeed their lawyer has to set out how the libel came about and evidence it.

Until it is known what befell Madeleine I cannot see how either side can possibly succeed.

It is simpler than that John.

Amaral, in his book, accused the McCanns of committing certain criminal acts. 

That is defamation.  i.e a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. 

You cannot write books accusing someone of committing a crime without risking an action for defamation.

The particular case brought by the McCanns is under Portuguese civil code and therefore a different (lower) standard of proof will pertain than if it had been brought under the penal code.   Monetary damages are generally lower in Civil law jurisdictions than in common law jurisdictions. 

Offline jassi

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #272 on: May 21, 2014, 04:06:13 PM »
It is simpler than that John.

Amaral, in his book, accused the McCanns of committing certain criminal acts. 

That is defamation.  i.e a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. 

You cannot write books accusing someone of committing a crime without risking an action for defamation.

The particular case brought by the McCanns is under Portuguese civil code and therefore a different (lower) standard of proof will pertain than if it had been brought under the penal code.   Monetary damages are generally lower in Civil law jurisdictions than in common law jurisdictions.

Would it still be defamation if it subsequently  turned out to be true?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #273 on: May 21, 2014, 04:16:00 PM »
Would it still be defamation if it subsequently  turned out to be true?

The case would be heard on the facts as they stand at the time of the trial.  i.e that the McCanns are innocent, and Amaral has accused them of committing a crime. 

Offline Victoria

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #274 on: May 21, 2014, 04:20:00 PM »
Would it still be defamation if it subsequently  turned out to be true?

Ask Jeffrey Archer.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #275 on: May 21, 2014, 04:25:09 PM »
Ask Jeffrey Archer.

A fair point - if the McCanns were subsequently found to be involved  then perverting the course of justice etc could be added to the quite long charge sheet.

But a case must be tried on the facts as they stand at time of trial, not based on things which may or may not happen in the future. 

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #276 on: May 21, 2014, 07:06:31 PM »
The mccanns have bought the case.

The burden of proof, for example in stating Amaral's book has impeded the  'search' is on them.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 02:21:50 PM by Mr Moderator »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #277 on: May 21, 2014, 07:10:40 PM »
The mccanns have bought the case.

The burden of proof, for example in stating Amaral's book has impeded the  'search' is on them.

thats only one part...and I accept that...they do not have to prove defamation...amaral must prove he has just cause to make the defamatory statements

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #278 on: May 21, 2014, 07:15:01 PM »
thats only one part...and I accept that...they do not have to prove defamation...amaral must prove he has just cause to make the defamatory statements

Remember davel, the case is still under the auspices of  'type of crime unknown'

The basic hypotheses  that Madeleine died in the apartment, or the one you prefer of abduction, have yet to be tested in court.

Oh and of course let's not forget the 'Freedom of Speech Act' in Portugal.

Offline Carana

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #279 on: May 21, 2014, 07:34:18 PM »
Hmmm. A few thoughts for the pot. I have no idea who will win this case. Who would have thought that Murat would have lost first time around?

(My understanding of Portuguese is somewhat basic, particularly in legalese, so I'll be happy to stand corrected if I've misunderstood, and this is simply what I can gather of the general gist.)

From the initial ruling in Murat's case (the paragraphs in italics under II – 1 – Das arguidas nulidades de sentença), he initially lost because there was no firm conclusion either way as to what was true or not, nor could he prove that the allegations were based on leaks in violation of judicial secrecy (CdaM were somehow able to prove they were able to verify their sources and cross-check information prior to publication). *cough*

RM also objected that they had printed photos of him without his consent (presumably in conjunction with lurid headlines), but the judge found that the fact that he was trying to help was public knowledge and he had therefore become a "public figure" as opposed to an anonymous citizen and the photos weren't taken in private situations.

Some of the examples of damage couldn't be proven (if I've understood that bit), but that it was proven that his business website had been hacked and why, and also that he'd received death threats. However, there was no proof that the damage was a direct consequence of CdaM's activity, as similar allegations were also published in other press outlets.

As it was not proven that CdaM had acted [ilicitude?] wrongfully / illegally (?), he lost the case, poor sod.

So... the bottom line was that the judge found it fine that he was branded a paedo /child abductor / cat-shagger as there was no proof that the allegations weren't true and that anyway, not all of the claimed damage could be proven and even then it couldn't be proven that CdaM was responsible for it.

Thankfully for him, however, the appeals court saw the matter differently, and he eventually won.








« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 06:06:00 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #280 on: May 21, 2014, 07:42:06 PM »
Remember davel, the case is still under the auspices of  'type of crime unknown'

The basic hypotheses  that Madeleine died in the apartment, or the one you prefer of abduction, have yet to be tested in court.

Oh and of course let's not forget the 'Freedom of Speech Act' in Portugal.

How could we? However there are more than two articles in it...

It's not clear to me yet whether their press laws will apply or not, and there is a whole series of personality rights.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #281 on: May 21, 2014, 07:42:42 PM »

Well let's see the outcome of the case.

Meanwhile can you exclude the possibility of what Amaral said is the truth ?

..........and if the mccanns lose the case, as you know, the tables will be turned.

Meanwhile as I said davel, there is the Freedom of Speech Act in Portugal.

I know about freedom of speech..morais used to post about it quite a bit...she never posted the whole quote though which states that freedom of speech has a responsibility

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #282 on: May 21, 2014, 07:46:14 PM »
How could we? However there are more than two articles in it...

It's not clear to me yet whether their press laws will apply or not, and there is a whole series of personality rights.

I believe Carana that the court case will drag on for some time to come, and lest we not forget , it isn't just one defendant in this case.

Offline Carana

Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #283 on: May 21, 2014, 07:48:48 PM »
I believe Carana that the court case will drag on for some time to come, and lest we not forget , it isn't just one defendant in this case.

Yes, I know, which is why I'm wondering if the press laws will be applicable or not.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Luz declares the Portuguese libel trial is not a libel trial ?
« Reply #284 on: May 21, 2014, 07:49:47 PM »
I know about freedom of speech..morais used to post about it quite a bit...she never posted the whole quote though which states that freedom of speech has a responsibility

I've only read the odd article by Morais.

Like i said davel ,time will tell, if and when the judge makes a decision.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 07:55:17 PM by stephen25000 »