Was Sheila Seen In The Kichen By EP?

[Myster]

How do you know the main bedroom window was open during the night? - even though one photo shows it to be so, the police might have opened it because of the smell.

[Holly Goodhead]

How do you know the main bedroom window was open during the night? - even though one photo shows it to be so, the police might have opened it because of the smell.

PC Delgado's stat:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=70

[Jodie]

It concerns me that people who believe JB is innocent cling on to what is clearly just human error on the part of the officer who reported seeing a female in the kitchen. It was Neville, that would have become evident upon their entry to the house. Suggesting it was Sheila really is clutching at straws.

[Andrea]

Indeed Jodie.clutching at straws indeed.

[John]

Neville's face was in the coal scuttle and his long hair gave the impression he was female.  An easy mistake to make when attempting a quick glance in a kitchen window when expecting to be shot at at any moment.

[Passer-by]

The problem with SC being in the kitchen seems to be the fact someone has suggested she was lying on the floor shot and then magically jumped up and pottered off upstairs.  Although very theoretically possible for her to do that it is exceedingly unlikely.

So moving on from my theory that SC shot herself with a double shot in close succession in her parents bedroom, it is therefore possible that SC was indeed in the kitchen.  She might have been putting her clothes to soak in the buckets, she might have been lying in wait, as many family annihilators do, for the finally family member to arrive so she could kill him too.  She might have just been having a drink.  The reason isn't too important.

And then she might have walked upstairs to read the bible and shoot herself twice upstairs when she realised the police were forcing an entry - and the gentle noise of sledge-hammer on wood could have disguised the sound to people outside.

[Holly Goodhead]

The problem with SC being in the kitchen seems to be the fact someone has suggested she was lying on the floor shot and then magically jumped up and pottered off upstairs.  Although very theoretically possible for her to do that it is exceedingly unlikely.

So moving on from my theory that SC shot herself with a double shot in close succession in her parents bedroom, it is therefore possible that SC was indeed in the kitchen.  She might have been putting her clothes to soak in the buckets, she might have been lying in wait, as many family annihilators do, for the finally family member to arrive so she could kill him too.  She might have just been having a drink.  The reason isn't too important.

And then she might have walked upstairs to read the bible and shoot herself twice upstairs when she realised the police were forcing an entry - and the gentle noise of sledge-hammer on wood could have disguised the sound to people outside.

I started this thread over a year ago and you live and learn! 

CAL P!95:

DR V @ trial: "Asked whether it was possible for Sheila to have stood and walked around after the first wound was inflicted, he replied that it was unlikely because the wound would have discharged 'a lot of blood' and the dispersal of blood on her nightdress was clearly indicative it was not the case."

"Today he is firmer still: 'She hadn't got up at all'."

"He did not attempt to estimate a time of death: 'That's hard enough at the best of times.  If the police ask us then we do look into it, but usually you get a better idea from other sources.  If you're dealing with a time of death some time in a range of five or six hours, then generally you're better off getting the information from when the victim was last seen alive through to when their body was discovered.' There was nothing at all to indicate that Sheila had died some significant time after her parents and sons'."

CoA

"38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night".

In CAL's book Dr V describes the wounds as 'loose contact'.  I understand contact shots (loose?) act as a natural suppressor:

"In many cases, the body's absorption of the muzzle blast will act as a suppressor, trapping the propellant gases under the skin and muffling the sound of the shot".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_shot

Surely if SC shot herself shortly before EP entered or upon entry it would be obvious?  SC would look different to the other victims?

In CAL's book Dr V also makes ref to the contents of SC's stomach:

"Her stomach contained 'partially digested food'.  Vanezis made no reference to the stomach contents of the other victims, leading to speculation that Sheila might have eaten later than her family.  'I'm sure they all had some food in their stomachs - I noted it for her and took it as read with the others'."

Away on hols shortly hope you will not have passed by by the time I return Passer-by 

[Passer-by]

So pretty much their prognosis was

(a) she was dead
(b) of gunshot wounds

Sounds like money for jam being a pathologist?!

Have a good hol Holls:  this is running out of steam but I shall keep checking for your review of that book   

[Angelo222]

The blood spot pattern on the bedroom carpet floor indicates that Sheila was shot in the neck while standing up and that she collapsed stunned instantly.

She might well have been in the kitchen earlier that morning before it all kicked off.  It's unlikely she was there after the fatal assault on Nev otherwise she would have had blood and glass splinters on her feet soles.

[Passer-by]

I thought it turned out there hadn't been glass and sugar all over the floor, it was only in one bit?  Also, in the photos, the table is still set for breakfast with the bowls etc in place, which is a bit odd for a scuffle.  I understood several burley policeman, thinking it was a siege, barged their way round the table and up the unused staircase full of clutter in the corner, only to find it locked and then had to reverse and come back down again, and that some of the mess was down to them?

[Myster]

I thought it turned out there hadn't been glass and sugar all over the floor, it was only in one bit?  Also, in the photos, the table is still set for breakfast with the bowls etc in place, which is a bit odd for a scuffle.  I understood several burley policeman, thinking it was a siege, barged their way round the table and up the unused staircase full of clutter in the corner, only to find it locked and then had to reverse and come back down again, and that some of the mess was down to them?

According to his w/s, PC Collins opened the kitchen staircase door but seeing all the clutter decided not to climb up. He returned to the scullery, leaving PC Hall to cover that stair. The cellar staircase door was stuck with hardened paint, and only forced open later by Collins who put a foot through the first tread(s). Glass from the lampshade was scattered all around, as was a broken brown sugar bowl.  Collins and Delgado, who were the first two to enter the kitchen before anyone else, reported the furniture being in disarray and concluded "that a violent struggle had taken place"

I suppose most of the items on the table behaved as they might do in a magician's "pull the tablecloth free without upsetting the crockery" trick.  Stayed on there by inertia.

[puglove]

According to his w/s, PC Collins opened the kitchen staircase door but seeing all the clutter decided not to climb up. He returned to the scullery, leaving PC Hall to cover that stair. The cellar staircase door was stuck with hardened paint, and only forced open later by Collins who put a foot through the first tread(s). Glass from the lampshade was scattered all around, as was a broken brown sugar bowl.  Collins and Delgado, who were the first two to enter the kitchen before anyone else, reported the furniture being in disarray and concluded "that a violent struggle had taken place"

I suppose most of the items on the table behaved as they might do in a magician's "pull the tablecloth free without upsetting the crockery" trick.  Stayed on there by inertia.

Wasn't the photo of the kitchen table taken after the police did a perfunctory tidy-up, to clear the floor? That's why everything looks "plonked" on rather than nicely laid, as June would have left it.

[Myster]

Wasn't the photo of the kitchen table taken after the police did a perfunctory tidy-up, to clear the floor? That's why everything looks "plonked" on rather than nicely laid, as June would have left it.

I've not read that although you could be right. But the crockery, knives, etc were bound to move out of place somewhat without falling off when the table was shoved back towards the Welsh Dresser.

[puglove]

I've not read that although you could be right. But the crockery, knives, etc were bound to move out of place somewhat without falling off when the table was shoved back towards the Welsh Dresser.

I expect you're right, Myster! CAL reckons that only some magazines and Sheila's bowl had fallen to the floor, as well as the sugar pot which had scattered brown sugar over the floor.

That's the problem with reading so much about the case over the years, especially from the Jeremy Bamber forum. Random stuff that interests me sticks in my head, but they're not verified, unlike facts in CAL's book.

[Passer-by]

Wasn't the photo of the kitchen table taken after the police did a perfunctory tidy-up, to clear the floor? That's why everything looks "plonked" on rather than nicely laid, as June would have left it.

Um, I think it still has Nevill in situ and I think the general idea if crime scene photos is the Police aren't meant to 'tidy them up a bit'?!